My bf's daugther........

Hope, for the sake of discussion I have put down 50-50 chance of divorcing vs not divorcing with a separation. If both consequences have an equal chance, why emphasise on not divorcing only?

You can go on and live on romantic notions that all marriages should not end in divorce, and even all separation will lead to reconciliation. But hopes and ideals are not reality. I see that you are one who will insist on staying married despite that everyone is miserable.
 


Milo
So you agree TS the young thing is the distraction, right? So shouldn't TS not get herself involved in so much of her bf's decisions with his wife and custody of the kid? To make things simpler? I am speaking from my experience. When there are problems in marriage, the couple has to solve their problems but being involved with affair, it does not solve their problems but add more problems, thus the mess now that TS is facing.

That's what I mean. Let the hb and wife settle their problems. Why TS needs to be involved?
 
Hope, there will always be distraction and may not even be a sweet young thing. For my ex-hb the "distraction" were gambling, car mods, debts, lies and joblessness. There was no woman or man.

TS can still date her bf but not get involved in their divorce proceedings or childcare arrangement.
 
If TS and her bf's love is so strong to eventually result in bf divorcing his wife, why she needs to worry the wife will use the kid to make him return back to her? By her worry, their love is not strong and so my theory of there is a chance for hb and wife to reconcile.
 
Hope,

During separation, the hb can do whatever he wants - including having a gf but not marriage. so, please don't jump on TS on this.

the only thing is TS should not get involved in the custody issue.. that is all. She can still be with her bf and love her bf.. nothing wrong with that.. The wife may not be happy with this but it can't be help. The wife can try to win her hb back - that is her perogative.
 
Hope,

it seems like you are someone who cares deeply about what seems to you to be morally upright.

i comprehend your point that separation = still husband and wife hence "should" not have a third party on the scene.

but do you realise that life does not conform to your mental rules on what "SHOULD" be?

separated people shack up with new partners while the divorce is not finalised, because they follow their hearts. they do not care about what is "Right" as long as they enjoy themselves.

and no, they will not care about the estranged spouse, whether they approved or not, or whether that spouse has also gotten a new partner.

you hold passionate convictions as to what you think is morally correct. that is why you commented so much in this thread reiterating that the TS should not be with her bf.

but you seem to be unable to accept that people out there, in general, dont care whether they have fallen short of your moral judgment or not. this includes your husband and his TOW whom you talked about in the other thread.

i think you could to redirect your energy and the focus of your mind from centering on Morals and Moral Expectations, to self-gratification.

i find that you can't seem to enjoy yourself, let go, laugh and relax. you are uptight.

because you care excessively about "doing the right thing" for your daughter, when the "right thing" is debatable.

doll said " I see that you are one who will insist on staying married despite that everyone is miserable." you could reflect on this.

let me share with you my personal experience.

before i stumbled on this forum, i despised divorcees (partially because those i knew were also screwed up in other areas of their lives)

i thought that they were failures in life and love, that they were losers one way or another.

but after reading so many posts, i saw that things need not be so rigid. life doesnt follow a set of rules. divorce need not mean failure. divorce could signal a chance for a new and better life.
 
May Ong
Isn't because of wrong morals that ppl engage in affairs? Shouldn't they divorce then look for new partners?

Thus the mess and complications come with the complicated and morally wrong r/s.

As what I said, this is my view only. You all can have different view, doesn't mean TS has to follow any one of our views. If TS accepts r/s with married man, then she has to accept the mess and complication and in order to live thru the mess and complication, thus better for TS not to be involved in the couple's settlement of their problems. That's all I mean.
 
There is nothing morally wrong about having a relationship while you are in separation. Separation is as good as divorce - emotionally and morally - except in the legal sense - still hb and wife.

If you want to remain celibate and not have a relationship during separation - it is a personal conviction. You can't expect the whole world to follow this conviction.

Separation may not lead to divorce. But from my personal experience with many separated couples - 8 out of 10 resulted in divorce especially if the separation exceeded a year or so. People don't separate for fun - when it is serious enough to be separated - there is really a big gap.

The odds is stack against reconciliation because for reconciliation to happen - it has to be wanted by both parties. As one as one party is bent on leaving - it is almost hopeless. So, don't be too hung-up about having a relationship during separation.

Separation is also a beautiful thing because it is time and it allows all the hard feelings to go away during this period. So when the divorce is in place - it is just a formality. Inconsequential.

Divorce is not necessary a bad thing. It may be a new discovery of yourself. It may mean you can be greater than you are previously. And it can give you new experiences and meet new people to enrich your life.
 
When your marriage breaks down all you can see is who is moral and who is immoral??

Hope, if you continue to look at things and people as moralistic vs immoralistic, your views will be very narrow and you will have limited room for personal growth and enlightenment.
 
Hope,

I do see your point completely. neither am i debating about the validity of your point of view.

the main idea im pointing out is that you could adopt a more laid back spirit in your life and start to lighten up a bit. because of your intense moral beliefs, you are having a hard time coping with your husband's affair (based on the other thread). by all means, you can continue to believe what is morally right, but you could stop expecting that others (including your husband) could live up to your standards. a change in expectations may make it easier for you to cope right now.
 
Our values and beliefs form our attitudes and actions. What may be considered socially "acceptable" in today's context may still not mean that it is moral or immoral to everyone.

Anyway we can argue till the cows come home and have an entire philosophical and sociological debate on what's considered moral or not. And still, nothing will be solved.

We can say our piece and hope that people make the right choices. Ultimately it is not up to us to judge.

I can understand where Hope is coming from and yes, that what TS' boyfriend tells her about his wife before the separation may not have been the complete truth. The wife may very well have been suspicious and became depressed due to her husband's "infidelity". In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the bf had tried hitting on other women before TS.

To reiterate what pretty much everyone else has been saying, I am also of the opinion that Lynn stay away from the child for now and let the father spend time alone with the child.
 
hmmmm...

i say, just do what you're currently doing - communicate and play with the child as per normal - and don't think too much about "psycho-ing" any involved party. do your usual stuffs with the bf and give him space to handle his own. be a supportive gf but not a turnoff-ish type like being vindictive out of nothing.

nor staying away completely from the child helps. it serves no purpose and is somehow like a delibrate act to make yourself look ugly. for what?
 
Hope, the last thing anyone should be doing while trying to savage a relationship is to argue on the correctness of things. What right or wrong? You are right, u win, but your partner wants out. Is that what you want still?

Do you get the point? No matter how wrong you think it is, it doesn't change a thing. Distractions doesn't just occur during separation. It happens ALL OF THE TIME. Even when the marriage is strong. Its really pointless to keep saying this is wrong that is wrong. Its a awfully wrong direction when one is not realizing how wrong one can be trying to reason a relationship out of wrongs and rights.

Ask around, how many people succeed in savaging any marriage by reasoning it out?
 
wow - didn't realise that when a working mommy puts her child in childcare, that means that she doesn't have much time for her child and won't be able to give her a 'normal' family life as so put by TS ..

does that mean i'm a bad parent cos my children are in childcare - and so that gives someone like TS the 'right' to decide that my children will be better off with someone else?

tsk ..
 
this thread makes a very good example of Why some pple dun live lilfe, but instead live and die by rules without ever knowing what happiness really is.

my goodness, getting divorced before starting to date... how fcuked up is that? what? masturbate for 3 fcuking years just to show some twisted form of integrity to pple, when nobody is bothered or really cares except maybe the girl/guy u're divorcing?

when u're in your 30s, try telling yourself to wait 3yrs... total disrespect for Life.
 
Hi All
matka is right, we can argue till the cows come home we will not reach consensus. So why argue? Different ppl hold different values, and you can't expect everyone to follow your values. Likewise, I hold my own values on morality, not because it is right, but due to personal experience that I am encountering now, it is creating a lot of unnecessary mess and problems, thus my views on this to make things simpler by not involving in married man, esp for a 23 yrs old who is obviously still not matured enough to handle these.

No point arguing who is right or wrong, just personal views. TS is free to listen to whoever who contribute here which might be dictated by her own personal values as well.

Milo, you are right, that no point to argue correctness of things with my hb, even if I win. The problem is my hb does not want out now, he wants in, in fact I am the one who want out, but has to be in for cos' my daughter wants us all in. You see the mess?

Same, TS' bf's daughter wants mummy and daddy to be in, this is natural not only because her mummy is poisoning her mind. Thus there might be a chance for them to be reconciled esp the bf loves his daughter so much, but TS is trying hard the get her bf out.

Why TS not let nature takes its cause? If she still wants in with her bf, just stay out of the problems of the couple esp the custody problem, let them settle themselves.

At the very least, if the couple ends up in divorce, please please don't instigate fighting for custody of the child or poison the child's mind, esp bf didn't want to fight for the custody in the first place. Poor child stucked in such battle of the adults trying to win the man.

That's all I think I can contribute towards this thread.

No mean to target at TS or any others. Just my personal views for TS to ponder.
 
junkie,

to avoid the child at all costs is not my style of doing things, i suppose. i could see that it will lead to more avoidances - pending, a certain flavour of self-imposed excuses.

so far i think TS is handling stuffs as it is, just that certain thoughts are currently running through her mind. well, good thing is that she has turned to this forum - so that there is a higher chance she won't gabra a situation that is actually manageable.

like i mentioned, be geninuely supportive. if the bf asks TS along to meet the child, just attend to her lest any needless talk abt the father or mother. if the child bullies TS, take a step back to understand her perspective and leave it to the bf to handle... don't complain or whine, thereafter. it's super irritating.

if he doesn't jio TS at any point of time, pls respect his decision. it sounds lame-ish to even ask why.
 
May Ong
Thanks for still remembering me. As I keep saying above, my situation is in a mess now. Hb wants in but don't seem to do anything to make it out. I want out but for the sake of daughter, have to stay in but don't know what to do.

So you all see the mess? That's why I keep advising TS to think properly whether she is capable of handling such possible mess by being involved in a married man. I am not saying TS and all of you have to subscribe to what I believe but it is out from personal experience now, not just sticking to morality for the sake of sticking to morality.
 
Hope, I agree with your advise to TS on how complicated the relationship really is and that she isn't mature and capable to handle it.

But still, its not the same point as the 3rd party being wrong etc. Its difficult to advise someone just telling them that u think they are wrong. Rather, point out factors that they might consider and let them draw that conclusion. Being honest with ourselves is probably the best way to discover ourselves.
 
Hope, can you take it that your case is UNIQUE or minimally DIFFERENT from TS? Your husband wants in, but not TS's bf. There are many permutations to such a relationship and your experience is at best your own experience. I hope you can dispense advices based on the situation TS is in, and not solely on your own experience.

As for yourself, you are staying in the marriage at your daughter's request but there is no real reconciliation. Nothing is repaired. Can you see, as long as one party does not want to play a part the marriage remains broken.

Above all, you sound very sad and miserable. I can't feel even a teeny weeny bit of happiness in your posts.
 
Hope,

i get what you mean.

anyway, expectations on people to behave morally can cause a lot of pain.

my experience was this.

when i first started work, i had a manager who favored another girl on the team as they had more rapport on a personal level. the favoritism was more about the way of interaction, being lunch mates and going out for activities after work. in terms of speech, the manager would always be more patient and nurturing to the other girl. to me, it was always a brushing off, harsh attitude and a tone of dislike and impatience. however, our portfolio allocation and prospects were more or less similar.

i felt very angry as this was wrong. we were two new girls on the team. neither of us has proven herself yet. so why the blatantly better treatment of the other girl? it upset me and gave me a lot of pain because everyone else around me was always aware of the treatment discrepancy.

i let it bother me to the extent that i hated it everyday when i came to work. it bothered me to the extent that my performance suffered. eventually, i left.

on retrospect, i think i should have better EQ in managing the situation. what is happening is indeed favoritism, but i shouldnt have dwelled on the feelings of self-righteousness and indignance about it. i should have been pragmatic - something is not right, so be it. i should have focused on excelling on my work, which is the fundamental thing. who knows, if i had excelled in my work despite the unconducive treatment, it might have helped to change that manager's attitude towards me.
 
In case you start to accuse me of advocating divorce, Hope, let me just add that I am not telling you to divorce or not to divorce. What I would like to tell you is - Get a life and be happy, whether divorced or married. And work backward if you know your goal is to be happy, and plan your life to achieve that happiness. Start now.
 
yes.

be happy.

if being right doesn't make you happy, something is wrong. perhaps the right is not so "right" after all, or the being right is not done in the "right" way. you get what i mean?
 
Hope,

Do you realize that none of us are actually saying about who is right or wrong in TS's case. We are only giving advices to her regarding handling of the little girl - not to get involved in the custody.

You were the one who came in to talk about the 3rd party in a moralistic tone. I can understand your perspective but since you now realize that it is pointless to argue about right or wrong or even it is morally right - it may not change the situation.

Of course you can still share your situation - give a moral lesson on why not to be a 3rd party in such a situation - but you can't stop others from commenting about your approach to the thread.

And again, you repeatedly mentioned TS's age of 23. I don't think age itself is a determining factor. Yes, it is a consideration but 23 is not that young. Her maturity is not due to her age but her exposure. Many people even when they are in their 30s or 40s or even 50s will behave like kids when it comes to matters of the heart.

Whatever that she is immature in - point it out but don't use age as an argument because it is not persuasive. It is just like I am telling you I am 50 years old, therefore I am very experience in life - therefore you shut-up.. how is that an argument?

When it comes to morals, each of us have different yard-stick shaped by our experience. You can share yours but you cannot be so up-tight about people not conforming to your standards.
 
hope,

Maybe you want to share more on why you don't want in?

YOu cannot forgive him?
YOu don't love him anymore?
and how is his attitude now?
 
Hi hope,

I'm on your side. Things will not be so messy if all the sweet young things go for single, eligible guys and leave the married ones alone.

Needless to say. We, girls will be happy but the guys will not be too happy because " Can see but cannot eat".
 
sm
This thread is not abt my problem, why re-start all over again?

I am not saying because her age is 23 thus she cannot handle. But by her posts, all of us agree she is immature and a bit childish in thinking of poisoning the kid's mind to keep her bf. It should not be this way. I am not just bringing the issue of her being the 3rd party, but by her diligent efforts / mentality to keep her bf, you can't deny she might be the distraction causing the separation now. So since she can't handle such complicated r/s, why jump in? Since she jumps in and insists in, let the couple settle the own problems now and not further complicating matter.

Each r/s is different from others and no one other than the parties involved know what are their problems. I am only bringing out my experience to share. Not saying hers is different from mine or will be the same as mine and whether I am correct or you are correct. Aren't we in forum just sharing thoughts? Who else other than TS can decide for her own?

I think in forum, let's just share and let TS decide herself. Why all argue so much who is right and who is wrong? If there is clear cut answer to every r/s, then might as well someone write a book on the right answers and all refer to this book of bible, don't need to seek opinion.
 
Hope, the thing is, u r the only one that is suggesting rightness of things and that other forumers are advocating divorce leh.

Let's just restart.

"Needless to say. We, girls will be happy but the guys will not be too happy because " Can see but cannot eat".

Albee, don't take sides for the sake of doing so. What nonsense are you talking about?? I'm happy being myself. Not we this or not. What's cannot eat? You don't even need a 3rd part to eat. There is always paid sex. If a man wants to cheat, he has his ways. What's there to be happy together grouping all the gals this way?
 
Hope,

Again. You started to talk about right and wrong. No one did. If you want to stop now. Stop now. Why again talk about her being a distraction? Keep going back to the issue of 3rd party.

Is ok if you don't want to talk about your problem - entirely your call
 
Albee,

You have to recognize 1 thing. It is not only the intention of the sweet-young-thing to hook up with married men

You have to have the willingness of the married men to hunt for sweet young thing.

Don't be so lopsided.
 
jz, i noticed that about albee as well and you know what, it is an admirable trait. it says a lot about the person you are when you think it's odd.
 
Hi,

Hee..Hee... I know it's wishful thinking on my part. Still, it's nice to imagine.

Of course, this is a Utopia scenerio. I don't think all the sweet, young things can resist the charm of the rich, successful married men till the end of time.

You, Guys are so lucky! No wonder some men say "if I have money, I can have any girl".
I feel so unfair but what to do, that's the way it is.
 
Albee, don't take sides for the sake of doing so. What nonsense are you talking about??
================================================

Milo, i think Albee is simply stating her ideals and her preferences. she thinks alike as Hope, that's all. how is that nonsensical.

if i were a SYT in TS' shoes, i will shun that married man + kid. i dont find him and his situation is attractive at all. seems like a bagload of problems to me.

deal with that pest of a kid? deal with that shrew of an estranged wife? where's the fun in all this. just trouble thats all
 
You, Guys are so lucky! No wonder some men say "if I have money, I can have any girl".
I feel so unfair but what to do, that's the way it is.

What fairness are you talking about? Does any girl includes you then?
 
May,

Ha ha.. too bad you are not sweet-enough, young-enough.. so you are not on "our" radar list.. just joking.

Sometimes falling for someone is illogical.. otherwise we won't have so many interesting stories to hear.. so yes, on paper not attractive..
 
milo,

Relax lah..

You should know albee by now.

She has one admirable quality. She has a high-level of filtering and selective reading. so she won't be angry or respond to posts that she don't want to.
 
That trait is something I mentioned many months back actually.

How's this :

she can be a bimbo and write brainlessly and so many of you come in defense of her. I feel so unfair but what to do, that's the way it is.

:p
 
Sm,

so maybe i should do a role reversal and go and hunt for sweet young things myself.

i mentioned before i like 22 yo boys right.

haha
 
seriously,

someone should come and syndicate this MOH forum and air it on national television with all the regulars as contributors.

so many fascinating stories everyday ...
 
May,

The reverse for you is much tougher if only talking about love. sure you can hunt for 22 yo boys. But as long as you give them plenty of sex, I think those boys will be willing..
 
"be geninuely supportive. if the bf asks TS along to meet the child, just attend to her lest any needless talk abt the father or mother. if the child bullies TS, take a step back to understand her perspective and leave it to the bf to handle"

vios,

i think lynn is more concerned with the "power" this girl has over her father, and she is convinced that the wife is using the child to backmail her bf emotionally. she feels threatened... what if he gives in?

she'll go crazy if he doesn't jio her... she needs to be around to make sure her bf won't get "poisoned" by the little girl.

it's an either-or choice for lynn to feel less threatened - cut all ties with the girl or gain full custody without the soon-to-be ex-wife's participation.

as mentioned earlier by lynn herself: "I admit I am partially selfish in wanting to bring this little one over but I cannot leave her alone becos she is part of the solution"

lynn sees the girl as "part of the solution"... she's definitelty thinking "long-term"
happy.gif


BUT, the trauma and upheaval every kid experiences in a divorce is for the little girl to bear.

lynn's presence doesn't help ease the pain... AND she obviously doesn't hv the girl's welfare at heart...
 
Not gonna do any hunting.

if im having so much fun travelling and working, why should i be bothered to look for potential problem

hypothesis only.
 


Milo,

this is open forum. I must say she says bimbiotic things. But her patience and tolerance is amazing. Even things hurled her way will be deflected..

We have enough making fun of her. She took it in all her stride.

I guess her mother gave her good training with all the treatment and nonsense.
 
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