Where is my happily ever after?
- Thread starter tiredsally
- Start date
tomasulu
Member
many people assume a certain outcome if an action is taken and that's that. well i believe that life is so much more fluid than some prescribed outcomes because the people living it are ever resourceful. take e.g., if we cut the inflow of foreign workers, conventional wisdom assumes that industries will be decimated and that's that. well maybe not because the story goes on and people will find ways to adjust and cope and even thrive in the new reality.
perhaps they will raise their productivity and compete well. or perhaps they will move on to providing higher value add and shift the lower value-add production to our neighbors. folks may even have to live without maids and learn some diy to do simple chores around the house. whatever the case, most first world countries and their citizens have transitioned from third world without relying on mass import of foreign labor to prop up their economies and their lives. even china will have to move up the economic value chain and lose certain industries to even lower cost competitiors. without losing the clutch of easy and cheap foreign labor, companies will not be motivated to raise their productivity.
ultimately, it depends on the society you want to live in. many people like singapore because they earn a high income, pay little tax and gets to enjoy the convenience of readily available foreign labor. or do you want a more equal society where the spread of wealth is more even because the poor/blue collar folks get paid more while the rich pay more for services rendered. there is no right and wrong answer to that.
perhaps they will raise their productivity and compete well. or perhaps they will move on to providing higher value add and shift the lower value-add production to our neighbors. folks may even have to live without maids and learn some diy to do simple chores around the house. whatever the case, most first world countries and their citizens have transitioned from third world without relying on mass import of foreign labor to prop up their economies and their lives. even china will have to move up the economic value chain and lose certain industries to even lower cost competitiors. without losing the clutch of easy and cheap foreign labor, companies will not be motivated to raise their productivity.
ultimately, it depends on the society you want to live in. many people like singapore because they earn a high income, pay little tax and gets to enjoy the convenience of readily available foreign labor. or do you want a more equal society where the spread of wealth is more even because the poor/blue collar folks get paid more while the rich pay more for services rendered. there is no right and wrong answer to that.
tomasulu,
You arguments are flawed and not in line with reality.
First, we don't have enough quality locals. Not only qualification. We don't care much about diploma or degree.. we can overlook all these especially when compared to Indian grads who has masters and sometimes double masters. We look at the experience and the type of work that they do and what they can produce. There are just not enough locals. This is the reality.
Bringing in FTs is not a quick fix. There is no other solution if we are to stay competitive. If there is no FTs for eg, we wouldn't be able to deliver our services, let alone be competitive.
Most of my clients are big MNC. They too are global companies. They know about costs.. like it or not, there are tremendous pressure to move have some of these jobs to be handled by other countries. But Singapore has a distinct advantage because of our good infrastructure and governance - MNCs still prefers contracts to be managed out of SG - because we ADD value to it. And we have a choice of using labour in foreign countries, they stay in that country or we import FTs into SG to perform the work. Importing FTs is more expensive for us - but it is a balance. And normally we do have a dynamic ratio. Importing FTs give us the competitive advantage to have the contract managed out of SG - although we could have also managed the contract out of SG using 100% resources in other countries... Isn't importing FTs better for SG then using 100% foreign resources? As you can imagine if the contract can be managed out of SG using 100% foreign resources then the next step the client would ask - why don't I give the contract to that foreign country instead.. Why SG??
Already we have many contracts that are managed in SG but using almost 100% foreign resources. And increasing we have the pressure to move in this direction. The world labour market is competing for all the jobs. If we don't bring in FTs to supplement the little local resources we have - we are not even in the game.
You arguments are flawed and not in line with reality.
First, we don't have enough quality locals. Not only qualification. We don't care much about diploma or degree.. we can overlook all these especially when compared to Indian grads who has masters and sometimes double masters. We look at the experience and the type of work that they do and what they can produce. There are just not enough locals. This is the reality.
Bringing in FTs is not a quick fix. There is no other solution if we are to stay competitive. If there is no FTs for eg, we wouldn't be able to deliver our services, let alone be competitive.
Most of my clients are big MNC. They too are global companies. They know about costs.. like it or not, there are tremendous pressure to move have some of these jobs to be handled by other countries. But Singapore has a distinct advantage because of our good infrastructure and governance - MNCs still prefers contracts to be managed out of SG - because we ADD value to it. And we have a choice of using labour in foreign countries, they stay in that country or we import FTs into SG to perform the work. Importing FTs is more expensive for us - but it is a balance. And normally we do have a dynamic ratio. Importing FTs give us the competitive advantage to have the contract managed out of SG - although we could have also managed the contract out of SG using 100% resources in other countries... Isn't importing FTs better for SG then using 100% foreign resources? As you can imagine if the contract can be managed out of SG using 100% foreign resources then the next step the client would ask - why don't I give the contract to that foreign country instead.. Why SG??
Already we have many contracts that are managed in SG but using almost 100% foreign resources. And increasing we have the pressure to move in this direction. The world labour market is competing for all the jobs. If we don't bring in FTs to supplement the little local resources we have - we are not even in the game.
Hi sm, let me offered my humble view.
Me too, work in an MNC and I concurred with your arguement. However, the downside of these FTs, is the price pressure on the housing cost and the increasing overloading of the public services such as transportation. How to achieve a good balance between the needs and the issues? I have no idea. The government is tasked to solve the issue, and they are highly paid to do so.
My opinion is, our government has done a less than satisfactory job on this issue. There are alot of real examples that our government could have learnt from before embarking on the FT journey, such as Macau, which, way before our two IRs are up and running, has already been facing housing cost issues since the mid 2000s due to thrie booming casino industry.
Me too, work in an MNC and I concurred with your arguement. However, the downside of these FTs, is the price pressure on the housing cost and the increasing overloading of the public services such as transportation. How to achieve a good balance between the needs and the issues? I have no idea. The government is tasked to solve the issue, and they are highly paid to do so.
My opinion is, our government has done a less than satisfactory job on this issue. There are alot of real examples that our government could have learnt from before embarking on the FT journey, such as Macau, which, way before our two IRs are up and running, has already been facing housing cost issues since the mid 2000s due to thrie booming casino industry.
Titan,
"Me too, work in an MNC and I concurred with your arguement. However, the downside of these FTs, is the price pressure on the housing cost and the increasing overloading of the public services such as transportation. How to achieve a good balance between the needs and the issues? I have no idea. The government is tasked to solve the issue, and they are highly paid to do so"
Not having FT is not a choice. We won't even survive very long.. I know for sure I will retire immediately and probably drive a taxi to make a living and pass time. However, I agree much could be done in the housing, transportation and other infrastructure. So the issue is planning for these and not the FTs per se.
I agree that the government could have done more but I don't think it is as easy as it is looking. High pay does not equate to solving problem so easily. If money can solve problem so easily, we can just throw at it. We are talking about sustainable growth and long term policy making. Hopefully more Singaporeans will join the rank to help rather than just sit and expect the government to solve all the problem just because they are highly paid.
"Me too, work in an MNC and I concurred with your arguement. However, the downside of these FTs, is the price pressure on the housing cost and the increasing overloading of the public services such as transportation. How to achieve a good balance between the needs and the issues? I have no idea. The government is tasked to solve the issue, and they are highly paid to do so"
Not having FT is not a choice. We won't even survive very long.. I know for sure I will retire immediately and probably drive a taxi to make a living and pass time. However, I agree much could be done in the housing, transportation and other infrastructure. So the issue is planning for these and not the FTs per se.
I agree that the government could have done more but I don't think it is as easy as it is looking. High pay does not equate to solving problem so easily. If money can solve problem so easily, we can just throw at it. We are talking about sustainable growth and long term policy making. Hopefully more Singaporeans will join the rank to help rather than just sit and expect the government to solve all the problem just because they are highly paid.
miloice
Well-Known Member
Concerns over FT policies are valid. The citizenship is degraded and abused because regulations governing it isn't thorough enough. We can continue long discussions pointing out importance of FT, it doesn't change the situation and the need to manage the issues better.
tomasulu
Member
You called my arguments flawed why? All you talked about is your particular situation which is one data point, hardly sufficient for policy making. But if you asked me, do I want an industry that operates out of SG but has only a bare minimum of local overlay resource then my answer is no.
tomasulu
Member
i feel strongly about this issue, that's why i am beating it to death here. typical fearmonger like sm likes to muddle the issue by presenting a false dicotomy - either you support the current immigration policies unabated or you want to erect a berlin wall and become another north korea. most folks i talk to just want the govt to be more selective in allowing foreigners to work here. in fact, it is how MOST other countries in the world do it. they determine what's the skill sets they need and really can't produce enough of (e.g., nuclear physicists and sushi chefs) and they allow only a small number to come in based on their meeting the requisite profile - age, family, language, etc.
and this whole business about work experience... what a joke. you know, people aren't going to magically develop that needed experience if HR bypasses them and hires only foreigners. or if you compare locals to indians with experience and grad degrees and who are willing to accept entry level pay. it is like when people say locals don't want blue collar jobs. are sinagporeans so fundamentally different from chinese from china or indians from india or malays from malaysia? of course not. locals don't want blue collar jobs because the pay are artificially depressed! and the situation is so because... well you know where i am going with this. when you pay plumbers what plumbers are paid in first world countries, you will get a bunch of locals attending ITEs on their own to become plumbers.
and this whole business about work experience... what a joke. you know, people aren't going to magically develop that needed experience if HR bypasses them and hires only foreigners. or if you compare locals to indians with experience and grad degrees and who are willing to accept entry level pay. it is like when people say locals don't want blue collar jobs. are sinagporeans so fundamentally different from chinese from china or indians from india or malays from malaysia? of course not. locals don't want blue collar jobs because the pay are artificially depressed! and the situation is so because... well you know where i am going with this. when you pay plumbers what plumbers are paid in first world countries, you will get a bunch of locals attending ITEs on their own to become plumbers.
rivernilebaby
New Member
I agree with tomasulu. We are opening our passionate arms to all lock stock and barrel. The GSS for immigrants. Our citizenship is now at a "leh long" status.
rivernilebaby
New Member
I have to start queuing for childcare one year prior and that does not even guarantee a place It may sound like a petty issue but its a pressing issue for a working mom. Why not enough childcare here? Because its much faster to grow the population by dangling big carrots to foreigners than using these carrots to build infrastructure for Singpaoreans to make babies and slowly wait for these Singaporean babies to grow up.
rivernilebaby
New Member
With forever insufficient infrastructure, there will forever be insufficient Spore babies and there will be forever leh longing going on. Its a vicious cycle.
For sure we will be seeing more tightening of FT inflow in the comming months as Mr Lim Swee Say has spoken yesterday that NTUC is thinking of proposing quotas for foreign PMETs (those having work pass), linking of company's quota eligibility to hiring of older singaporean worker, putting singaporean first...he even said he want to prevent having a company's management consisting of all foreigner.....now he finally realised and discovered....this may means higher salary for singaporean but also higher prices (eg bus fare) and cost...and not so good news for landlords and businesses...
World class pay for plumber...we will be like Aus and USA...end up DIY...which I think is positive...
World class pay for plumber...we will be like Aus and USA...end up DIY...which I think is positive...
miloice
Well-Known Member
I always DIY whenever possible for home fixes.
Cos, I'm sick of the tactics used by these plumbers. I rather they quote a higher rate up front than to come up hidden costs such as copper connectors charging at $20 each for them to complete their job. For that, they did a poorer job than I would to do myself.
Cos, I'm sick of the tactics used by these plumbers. I rather they quote a higher rate up front than to come up hidden costs such as copper connectors charging at $20 each for them to complete their job. For that, they did a poorer job than I would to do myself.
rivernilebaby
New Member
So in some jobs, locals are snobbish and job hoppers and expensive. Maybe. In some industries at Shenton way, job opportunities are shrinking despite the impressive GDP growth headlines. Why? Because when big global names relocate here, they bring in their entire team from London (people are running away from Europe to Asia), HK..When its so easy to get work permit, why bother to interview and hire locals from scratch? Does it mean that locals that could have been hired for these new entrants are lazy, unproductive and expensive?
Its true to some extend...my company has brought over a few FT from other countries when they open their singapore regional office....our office is an UN...singaporean are minority...and some jobs can be filled my singaporean imo....its this familiarity and relationship and knowing their character and ability that they want to continue with them....its better to work with someone you already know than new...for major investment, they usually have understanding from the gov to let them have some leeway in bring whatever people they want...
sgbabydoll
Active Member
It's really ironic that the stop-at-two population control policy has come back to haunt the government and Singapore.
rivernilebaby
New Member
And the major investment that Nichie mentioned did beef up headline GDP growth but did it benefit a taxpaying citizen?
About blue-collar jobs. The cleaning auntie at my office is very friendly and often chats about her lifem her grandchildren. She is in her fifities, has to do 2 jobs (her cleaning job is $500 month, normal office hours and she sells hand lotion, mushrooms, other misc stuff to whoever is interested to buy from her). According to her, her income goes to paying for HDB installment, livelihood (lunch in this part of Spore is not cheap even at a hawker centre relative to that level of pay) and is not enough to save up for retirement. Her children have their own hard time feuding for themselves. She said pay is low but there are many others who are willing to do it at that price.
My relative runs a biz and he hires Chinese as movers as he pays them $500, also normal office hours. We asked him how these workers survive on $500. Don't they have to pay for rental. Yes, they pay $200 for rental (share room with 3 others on bunker beds), eat plain beehoon/$2 chicken rice for lunch/dinner everyday and save up the rest. When they return home, they build big houses and are considered rich.
Yes, there is indeed a shortage of blue collar workers in Singapore. No singaporeans want to work as construction workers now. Hot, manual, low pay, zero prestige. They are all from China and countries near to Indian ocean. But even among some blue collar jobs, only the participatesknow what it takes to compete. Our cleaning auntie must live with such competition who can always run back home in due time and be rich. But she will forever remain poor, pay for not so cheap yet humble housing in local terms with that kind of pay and perhaps continue to work till she can nolonger.
About blue-collar jobs. The cleaning auntie at my office is very friendly and often chats about her lifem her grandchildren. She is in her fifities, has to do 2 jobs (her cleaning job is $500 month, normal office hours and she sells hand lotion, mushrooms, other misc stuff to whoever is interested to buy from her). According to her, her income goes to paying for HDB installment, livelihood (lunch in this part of Spore is not cheap even at a hawker centre relative to that level of pay) and is not enough to save up for retirement. Her children have their own hard time feuding for themselves. She said pay is low but there are many others who are willing to do it at that price.
My relative runs a biz and he hires Chinese as movers as he pays them $500, also normal office hours. We asked him how these workers survive on $500. Don't they have to pay for rental. Yes, they pay $200 for rental (share room with 3 others on bunker beds), eat plain beehoon/$2 chicken rice for lunch/dinner everyday and save up the rest. When they return home, they build big houses and are considered rich.
Yes, there is indeed a shortage of blue collar workers in Singapore. No singaporeans want to work as construction workers now. Hot, manual, low pay, zero prestige. They are all from China and countries near to Indian ocean. But even among some blue collar jobs, only the participatesknow what it takes to compete. Our cleaning auntie must live with such competition who can always run back home in due time and be rich. But she will forever remain poor, pay for not so cheap yet humble housing in local terms with that kind of pay and perhaps continue to work till she can nolonger.
rivernilebaby
New Member
Maybe we should tell the cleaning auntie, serve u right for not just renting a room and eating plain beehoon everyday. U are lazy and demand too much.
rivernilebaby
New Member
I read through the posts very quickly just now and missed out on what what Tomasulu said about cabbies.
That day I sat in a cab operated by a Chinese immigrant. He told his many of his friends from china also driving taxi now. Nothing against him, just saying factuall that all our industries are well penetrated now in whatever levels.
That day I sat in a cab operated by a Chinese immigrant. He told his many of his friends from china also driving taxi now. Nothing against him, just saying factuall that all our industries are well penetrated now in whatever levels.
miloice
Well-Known Member
Doll, I don't think so. As mentioned earlier, the population growth that is being pushed for is not naturally sustainable at any reasonable rate. The birth rate is just the perfect excuse for the mass imports. They blame us Singaporeans for low birth rate and then almost double the population in an instant within the short span of last 5 yrs.
miloice
Well-Known Member
Rivernile, I don't think we have just keep increasing the wages of everyone including basic low skilled blue collar jobs.
Yes, some Singaporeans will lose their jobs. I call for better policies to help these people than to somehow increase the costs of these commodity services. There is absolutely no value and competitiveness for Singaporeans in commodity market. E.g. having grants / incentive / regulations for employing elderly that would lever the costs for employers in hiring elderly folks that need the job over FT.
Yes, some Singaporeans will lose their jobs. I call for better policies to help these people than to somehow increase the costs of these commodity services. There is absolutely no value and competitiveness for Singaporeans in commodity market. E.g. having grants / incentive / regulations for employing elderly that would lever the costs for employers in hiring elderly folks that need the job over FT.
sgbabydoll
Active Member
Milo, the government adopted a hard-line approach to reduce birth rate from the mid-60s for about 20 years. Their justification: There were not enough schools, medical facilities and jobs to support the population growth. And then, birth rate fell and never quite picked up again even when the government reversed its policy. Can't say that that policy did not contribute to the situation today.
miloice
Well-Known Member
yes, its contributed but falling birth rates happens in almost every urbanized society.
When you look at the context today, they are pushing the population growth to such adnormal rates. The reason of birth rate doesn't match up. Even if we are all having 3-4 kids, they will still need the FT influx to reach current levels. While birth rate remains a valid issue we have to overcome, it isn't the main reason why FT are imported.
When you look at the context today, they are pushing the population growth to such adnormal rates. The reason of birth rate doesn't match up. Even if we are all having 3-4 kids, they will still need the FT influx to reach current levels. While birth rate remains a valid issue we have to overcome, it isn't the main reason why FT are imported.
sgbabydoll
Active Member
Birth rate was never so much an issue in itself. The reason has always been economically driven. First, they were afraid that the population growth would affect economic stability, now, they are afraid that there is not enough human resource to support the economic expansion rate that they want to see. They were always taking extreme measures. I will like to see a more balanced measure.
GY is considering running for president...I dont quite agree of him to go for it...narrow jobscope...awaste of talent...but he insist he can be sure of my support...at least he can still help in fostering good relationship with other countries for singapore...but I wish he can still stay with pap and run for election again...he is more effective and benefit singapore more if he is the foreign minister...or atleast as special envoy appointed by gov for certain specific task lke FTA or global issues representing singapore interest...
rivernilebaby
New Member
MOR,
With inflation rates we have seen and will still be seeing, these low skill workers are effectively experiencing real wage cut. How far can people on the verge get stretched. Why can't we increase the wages of everyone including blue collar jobs when even basic necessities are all rising. No wage growth is as good as saying time value of money doesn't exist for this lowly skilled group of people and that they live on another planet.
Of course the reality is at the end of the day, everything in life is about demand and supply. When there is competition from overseas who gladly work so cheap, they can never see daylight. Like u said, no wage increase.
The point I am trying to make is while it is a common belief that blue collar jobs are taken by foreigners due to lack of supply of locals or snobbish locals who would not touch this deemed as lowly jobs (in some areas its true), we must not forget the still hardworking and humble locals that are trying their best to earn that bowl of rice amidst the competition. So to say we need foreigners as locals are sooooo snobbish is a sweeping statement. There are many kinds of locals.
Ur point about using proper policy to redistribute income I do agree and lets hope more can be done for them.
With inflation rates we have seen and will still be seeing, these low skill workers are effectively experiencing real wage cut. How far can people on the verge get stretched. Why can't we increase the wages of everyone including blue collar jobs when even basic necessities are all rising. No wage growth is as good as saying time value of money doesn't exist for this lowly skilled group of people and that they live on another planet.
Of course the reality is at the end of the day, everything in life is about demand and supply. When there is competition from overseas who gladly work so cheap, they can never see daylight. Like u said, no wage increase.
The point I am trying to make is while it is a common belief that blue collar jobs are taken by foreigners due to lack of supply of locals or snobbish locals who would not touch this deemed as lowly jobs (in some areas its true), we must not forget the still hardworking and humble locals that are trying their best to earn that bowl of rice amidst the competition. So to say we need foreigners as locals are sooooo snobbish is a sweeping statement. There are many kinds of locals.
Ur point about using proper policy to redistribute income I do agree and lets hope more can be done for them.
rivernilebaby
New Member
Point is, we definitely need FT, but in all areas as what is happening now? So indiscriminate? I believe our government has realised that and is rectifying that and lets also give them some credit for realising that and trying to correct hopefully.
birth rate, FT and higher growth...there are always trade off to be made...singapore is not china or usa...even china now is facing pressure from labour shortage and labour cost...they have to move up the value chain where singapore is in now...we are now facing competition from a 1.3bn population market with a much lower cost base...they only obstacle is IP protection an rule of law...do we have the luxury of time to wait, pause and wonder...I always believe that its better to worry about high cost with abundant job than low cost but no/limited job...I have colleague in china and they told me about the tremendous pressure for graduate to find a job after graduation...6 or 7 million graduate every year...their job fair is a frightening expereince for them..ten of thousand of people...when they came to singapore..we talked about crowding of buses and mrt here..they laughed...they told me I dont know what is called crowded...for them there..its survivor...I always think that singaporean need to travel more to understand how other people live their life to appreciate the situation here...if we are such an unsatisfied lot...nothing is stopping us to emigrate to our neighbours...cheap housing, subsidiesd petrol, control prices for essential items etc...
We can argue until the cow come home but nothing will change the fact that we still need foreigner in all sectors of our economy if we inspire to become a prosperous, dynamic cosmopolitan city and major hubs for the region, thats what singapore is useful for the world, to be relevant to the world...we need the world not the other way round...we need to continue to welcome foreigner to come here to work and stay but we need to speed up our infrastruture build up but in the forseeable future, we will have to live with our population having a substantial foreigner for us to be relevant to the world.
We can argue until the cow come home but nothing will change the fact that we still need foreigner in all sectors of our economy if we inspire to become a prosperous, dynamic cosmopolitan city and major hubs for the region, thats what singapore is useful for the world, to be relevant to the world...we need the world not the other way round...we need to continue to welcome foreigner to come here to work and stay but we need to speed up our infrastruture build up but in the forseeable future, we will have to live with our population having a substantial foreigner for us to be relevant to the world.
rivernilebaby
New Member
Nichie,
I don't think Singaporeans are unsatisfied or a whole lot of spoilt child who love to complain. Quite the opposite. We are hardworking and accomdating. We give the confidence of vote to our government for so many decades and will continue to give to them in the next few decades, maybe centuries. Look at other countries, one new ruler every so often.
So must be compare ourselves to villagers in China with no clean amenities to use to feel happy. If that is the case, human beings cannot keep improving and evolving.
We need foreigners but we also need to provide enough resources to fix that low birth rate crisis. It is a crisis. The birth rate is lower than Japan. Using foreigners to fix is a quick fix but will it be a good fix? Time will tell.
By saying that if u are dissatisfied, u can always migrate. Our government will never say that to us because that is spiteful and non constructive. Our government knows that we love Spore and will not be quitters, that is why they are willing to listen more and take the opinions into consideration
I don't think Singaporeans are unsatisfied or a whole lot of spoilt child who love to complain. Quite the opposite. We are hardworking and accomdating. We give the confidence of vote to our government for so many decades and will continue to give to them in the next few decades, maybe centuries. Look at other countries, one new ruler every so often.
So must be compare ourselves to villagers in China with no clean amenities to use to feel happy. If that is the case, human beings cannot keep improving and evolving.
We need foreigners but we also need to provide enough resources to fix that low birth rate crisis. It is a crisis. The birth rate is lower than Japan. Using foreigners to fix is a quick fix but will it be a good fix? Time will tell.
By saying that if u are dissatisfied, u can always migrate. Our government will never say that to us because that is spiteful and non constructive. Our government knows that we love Spore and will not be quitters, that is why they are willing to listen more and take the opinions into consideration
rivernilebaby
New Member
Nichie,
yes, for ur statement on
more calibrated and precise policy for specific industry to help singaporean eg quota for foreign PMETs in finance or manufacturing sector...linking hiring of older singaporean to foreign worker quota...this will help alot of singaporean
clap clap I second that.
yes, for ur statement on
more calibrated and precise policy for specific industry to help singaporean eg quota for foreign PMETs in finance or manufacturing sector...linking hiring of older singaporean to foreign worker quota...this will help alot of singaporean
clap clap I second that.
wah...rivernile...you give me an impression that you are from the gov or civil service lei...ok lah....I take back the emigration statement...we are all singaporean...should stay united and go through this problem together...
btw...the china issue...I am not comparing their villages lei...its those major city like beijin, nanjing, shanghai etc...
confidence of vote for next centuries...err...next 10 to 20 years ok lah...beyond that hard to tell..
I think taking in immigration is indeed one of the way to boost up population...look at japan...they make it so difficult for foreigner to integrate and discourage immigration...their society is rapidly aging...this will have impact on their competitiveness, vitality, dynamism as a country and economy...look at USA...they embrace diversity and immigration...their population is growing and although they have problem in their economy now but their economy is resilence and will recover in no time due to their creativity and entrepreneurship and their ability to attract talent from all over the world.
btw...the china issue...I am not comparing their villages lei...its those major city like beijin, nanjing, shanghai etc...
confidence of vote for next centuries...err...next 10 to 20 years ok lah...beyond that hard to tell..
I think taking in immigration is indeed one of the way to boost up population...look at japan...they make it so difficult for foreigner to integrate and discourage immigration...their society is rapidly aging...this will have impact on their competitiveness, vitality, dynamism as a country and economy...look at USA...they embrace diversity and immigration...their population is growing and although they have problem in their economy now but their economy is resilence and will recover in no time due to their creativity and entrepreneurship and their ability to attract talent from all over the world.
rivernilebaby
New Member
Nichie,
I can tell u care for Singapore as an entity plenty and same here.
I see, on transportation,overcrowdedness that now results in delays at public tp and insufficient infrastructure does result in fall in productivity. So complain or not complain, its important to fix.
USA's fertility rate is slightly above 2. So while I embrace the import of foreigners in a discrimate manner, the inherent birth rate trend of a nation marks its ability to survive long term.
I can tell u care for Singapore as an entity plenty and same here.
I see, on transportation,overcrowdedness that now results in delays at public tp and insufficient infrastructure does result in fall in productivity. So complain or not complain, its important to fix.
USA's fertility rate is slightly above 2. So while I embrace the import of foreigners in a discrimate manner, the inherent birth rate trend of a nation marks its ability to survive long term.
miloice
Well-Known Member
Outcast, we need to look at how to progress and improve. Not excuse or trivialise our issues saying others are worser of. Let's be honest with our issues. Policies made have been focused solely on driving the economy and virtually nothing done to ensure the transition is managed well. All the snowballing issues are real. Asking for a more balanced approach isn't asking for the world. We have to be careful not to be a welfarism society for it will bring us to regression, at the same time, do enough to help those that cannot even help themselves anymore.
sgbabydoll
Active Member
I would like to see how GY can make contributions to SG in the business sector. Talent should not just remain in the public sector.
Tan Kin Lian has conceded defeat...and he might lost his deposit...felt sorry for him but admire his courage....I hope the candidate I voted for is one of the top two front runner Kin Lian mentioned....if my candidate won...it will be a quite an upset tonite...we need an independent rational president which is not so close to the establishment....cheers!!
mirrorcelcius
Member
our world have too much flags, because of that so many unnecessarily value and labeling going on.
the people come from so call japan, their blood make from gold and their brain make from microchip. and the people come from america, their body is immune to the diseases and live forever.
just like clothing, one make from china and one make from Italy. make in Italy, you will immune to the flue if you wear it. and make from china you will get sick often. the people value make in Italy higher just because the word ITALY. and they don't know they are just clothing that everybody wear the same way and function the same shit.
i am not Singaporean, i am earth citizen. instead of competing to others people, is it better to work together to build a better earth than better nation ? and to build a better human than better Singaporean ?
the word Singaporean, american, Japanese, European ? are these really necessarily ?
labeling is everything isn't ?
the people come from so call japan, their blood make from gold and their brain make from microchip. and the people come from america, their body is immune to the diseases and live forever.
just like clothing, one make from china and one make from Italy. make in Italy, you will immune to the flue if you wear it. and make from china you will get sick often. the people value make in Italy higher just because the word ITALY. and they don't know they are just clothing that everybody wear the same way and function the same shit.
i am not Singaporean, i am earth citizen. instead of competing to others people, is it better to work together to build a better earth than better nation ? and to build a better human than better Singaporean ?
the word Singaporean, american, Japanese, European ? are these really necessarily ?
labeling is everything isn't ?
Ever since the birth of nations, humans has been associating with each other - it is a natural tendency. We view others not exactly the same as us with suspicion. It is not right or wrong but just human tendency.
You want to call yourself earth citizen. Why stop at Earth. And not a citizen of the universe?
You want to call yourself earth citizen. Why stop at Earth. And not a citizen of the universe?
miloice
Well-Known Member
Well... MJ did so much to help only to be labelled a child molester. Despite no evidence, he is convicted in the eyes of many. His dream is really childlike in a fantasy world he built himself. Made possible from his wealth and fame since tender ages. Having noble ideas isn't enough, even with resources and conviction to see through it, it probably will go unappreciated.
On the point about Chinese made products. Anyway China made or Europe, its the same product? Haven't you heard of Macdonald mugs imported from China having to be taken back due to dangerous levels of lead? You think Japanese and european make their cars the same as the chinese manufacturers?
There is a significant difference between product produced by Chinese manufacturing company vs MNC operated manufacturing in China. They benefit from the yrs of manufacturing best practices and processes. Just as how you have the bullet train in China that is really just a hybrid of all the parts purchased from other international makers. Assemble them together and overclock it. Get on the fast train and tell me its just the same.
Most MNCs, despite locating their manufacturing in China, will never be able to compete in pricing alone with the local manufacturing. The cost structure can never be matched for obvious reasons. When you buy chinese baby milk powder for your kid. Would you think its only just milk? It has not only made people sick, many died from it. This is the very reason why people still buy Japanese electronics despite made in China instead of a Chinese brand.
On the point about Chinese made products. Anyway China made or Europe, its the same product? Haven't you heard of Macdonald mugs imported from China having to be taken back due to dangerous levels of lead? You think Japanese and european make their cars the same as the chinese manufacturers?
There is a significant difference between product produced by Chinese manufacturing company vs MNC operated manufacturing in China. They benefit from the yrs of manufacturing best practices and processes. Just as how you have the bullet train in China that is really just a hybrid of all the parts purchased from other international makers. Assemble them together and overclock it. Get on the fast train and tell me its just the same.
Most MNCs, despite locating their manufacturing in China, will never be able to compete in pricing alone with the local manufacturing. The cost structure can never be matched for obvious reasons. When you buy chinese baby milk powder for your kid. Would you think its only just milk? It has not only made people sick, many died from it. This is the very reason why people still buy Japanese electronics despite made in China instead of a Chinese brand.