Innocent flirting?

Hi AB
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"This is different to using these sex chats for self enjoyment or as a supplement to spice up things. When I'm not in the mood or PMSing, or feeling damn shitty that particular day, there's nothing wrong with my guy going online and finding another way to pleasure himself. And this works vice-versa too, it helps me get revved up for some amazing times with the fiance. "

It's great that you and your guy can be agreeable about this. Like I say it'll be no issue if the wife and HB can see eye to eye on the subject, and respect each others boundaries. The problem arises when both parties have different expectations.

"I must say, Ariel, that I'm glad we can disagree with the issue at hand without being closed-minded, judgemental, confrontational, defensive or just plain bitchy. If only more people were like you."

Honestly, I may just react like Powerfish and Ameline if I were to find out one day my HB doing these behind my back. If he makes it clear to me he will do it before I marry him, and I still go ahead to marry him, then it's my problem...

By the way how did you do the italics thing?
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hi ariel,

"This is exactly why i cannot accept if my BF or spouse engages in that... because things might get out of hand."

actually, its a balance lah. Cannot accept simply because things might get out of hand? then, really need to cage him up liao. Cos, in office, even maids at home can have affair also.
 
"actually, its a balance lah. Cannot accept simply because things might get out of hand? then, really need to cage him up liao. Cos, in office, even maids at home can have affair also."

Yes yes sometimes really feel like getting a cage just for him. Just kidding :D

Ya I get your point. At the end of the day, it's up to the individual how he or she wants to control themselves in times of temptation.
 
dear all,

Thanks alot for your fierce arguments.

I talked to hubby and after his total shutdown, I slowly broke ice. I did not know he has been doing this all the while right from before we met. And its usually during office lunchbreaks and working hours.

Thanks to the arguments here, he used them all to justify his doings. I tried to understand his reasons but it was shutdown. Its not all his fault. I am sure I am a contributor to the problem too but for now, he won't say.

We will be initiating divorce procedure soon and he agrees to let me look after our daughter.
 
Hi ameline, I am sorry and sad to hear of your situation. Probably the reason for triggering your thoughts in here. Take the breakdown as sometime for the both to really calm down.

Apart from the gender bashing from powerfish, its hardly really aggressive. Was powerfish u? Personally, I found it extremely good exchange between ab, Ariel, powder, myself and others. Each had a different pov and flavour without the need to condemn each other.
 
Ameline,

it'll take awhile for u to get it. cos u obviously dun...

what i saw here was Opinions, Points of Views... u call them arguments becos it doesn't sit well with the way your world has been constructed.

for u to arrive at divorce after 4 posts - reiterates what i'm saying all these while... that some of u stay in your world, unexposed and narrow til the sh!t hits the fan, and u come dumping all your frustrations on Men, on male forummers, and throwing questions that Masks your personal choices and decisions.

If this should be the last u're in this forum, then i hope u take something more away than just "fine". Life is abt learning and learn we shall... i think most of u stopped learning, stopped living and stopped Your Personal Journeys in life as it ended in marriage.

right now it's very likely to think it's all ended and go into some sad sad place and wallow... and if u do that, then That's even sadder. so really - see thru what's been shared as more than just arguments... there's more wisdom in what's posted as u might actually realise...
 
1. No. I am not powerfish.
2. This revelation was a few weeks before last. I tried all means to understand why he did it; to salvage our marriage but he was evasive, defensive and not understanding of where I was coming from.
3. Questions here were meant to find out possible reasons and also to draw him to talk more about the problem.
4. Yes. I chose him and I must have been blind not to know this side of him. I was prepared to accept the actions if he could tell me himself why he needed this sort of thrill. But it came only as 'because other men find nothing wrong with this too'.

5. power, don't keep bashing back with insults at powerfish. Try to understand how hurt, humiliated and shocked she must have felt in her situation. Yes not all men are like what she says but she must have felt that way cos of some personal reasons. The scumbag I married certainly behaved like how she described. And he only turned that way when I confronted him.
 
Ameline, I am sorry to hear that.
sad.gif
Do try to find support among your close friends and family at this time. Take care...
 
Ariel:
By the way how did you do the italics thing?

Italics: text
Bold: text
<u>Underline:</u> text

Replace the [] with <>

You may deposit $100 to my POSB Savings account for that html lesson.... :P
 
I talked to hubby and after his total shutdown, I slowly broke ice. I did not know he has been doing this all the while right from before we met. And its usually during office lunchbreaks and working hours.

Ameline, I'm so sorry that you're hurting.

Are you referring to surfing porn and sex chats? I find it unfathomable that he does this IN THE OFFICE?!?!?! Most workplaces have a low or no-tolerance policy to such conduct and to jeopardise his job for a little thrill is ridiculous. I personally know of one case in my office and the guy was fired for it.

Like Milo said earlier, there needs to be a balance and also responsibility. If he can't hold his urges for a few more hours until he reaches home, I think he has a problem.
 
Thomas, that is what I think too, though it's only based on the info Ameline gave.

The guy that I mentioned got fired, he had locked his office door and was seen masturbating to porn by people who were in the adjacent building and could see directly into his office. A complaint was lodged and the guy was fired after they found all kinds of things in his computer hard drive.
 
its really quite crazy for someone to do all these cybersexing from the office.

He must be paid too much to do nothing frankly. hence boredom kicks in and formed the habitual addiction.
 
Ameline, apart from the obvious points brought up thus far. There is one key point about your partner.

He never did share nor reveal his true self to you all these while. Think over why this is so. Sometimes, its the person himself not being able to break open and be himself. He might be feeling guilty and shameful about his true nature. In a way, caging himself all these while living a double life.

OR it could be that the partner has such perfect expectation of him. So much that he deems it completely unacceptable and unthinkable for you. Hence, he hides it from you.

I would think its normally a combination of both.

Whatever the reason, its hard for any relationship to sustain without communication, and fearing to reveal one's true personality and thought. It must been extremely tiring and contradicting to him all these while.

Many people especially men gone thr struggles with their own sexuality. Due to social norm, religions etc, many of our sexual urges are seen weird, unacceptable, dirty and shameful. It affected almost every boy during his growing up with raging hormones and ever growing urges &amp; sex appetite. Some of us manage to make sense of it all and became frank and confident over our own sexuality. We can cope with it, share and talk about it without fear. While some others would develop secret lives with hidden ways to fulfill their fantasies in their self created sex haven and realm. If you would to look to the extreme, you would find serious sex criminals that lead a double life as normal healthy married man. Of cos, these are the extreme, most people fall in between. Where many such secrets they would find too private to share even with their spouses. Let alone expect their partners to be involved and appreciate it.

the purpose of this msg isn't to justify or determine who's right. Its really to help you understand probably why your husband is behaving like this. Defensive, and shutting down completely.

To me, one must be without fear to reveal and share with their partners. A marriage with someone I cannot do that is totally meaningless for me. Nothing is perfect and I'm pretty sure lots of marriages and relationships have such issues. But, personally, this is a basic common requirement for my marriage. The very need for marriage would be in question if this basic foundation doesn't exist.
 
Ameline,

i wanna reiterate your POOR judgment. i posted once to Power Fish and it's not even bashing... so Learn another lesson here - u have a poor ability to judge, and your judgements are clouded by your emotions.

my nick is POWDER, not POWER. so READ, dun just read with an intent to argue and throw your emotions at me. i'm NOT responsible for your impending divorce not your current problems... if anything i'm showing u a side u dun even know.

i UNDERSTAND emotions WAYYYYYY better than most of u. that's how i conquer mine instead of wallowing and sulking.

u do the hugging, i'm not into this hugging molly-coddling stuff.
 
to add... only when you can truly understand and recognize him for who he really is, can he feel safe to reveal more of his inner self.

It doesn't mean you need to participate in them at all. But, the acceptance that your partner is just another man with his own fetish fantasies would enhance rather than destroy the marriage.
 
cybersexers (with noisy spouses/gfs/bfs/employers) basically fall into two groups: the ones kena caught red-handed and the ones still happy surfing... the former must be thinking: "gd grief, if only i'm more lucky!"
 
hi all,

so far so good.. trying very hard not to let the past dictate my future, but i guess the hurt i suffered was too much to be soothed in a short time. i will never understand or know why he did what he did, nor do i even want to understand it. because i know i will NEVER accept it.

i know ppl may say why since i cannot accept it, why do i stil choose to stay in this marriage?

stupidly, i still love him. for me to totally forgive and forget this past year, will be the day i realise i have stopped loving him. and that is when i really will leave. it is a struggle for both of us, to a certain extent, we have buried this somewhere and i know that one day, when given the opportunity, it will appear and bite us. but on some level, i do hope that some catalyst will appear so that we can find some way to resolve this..

the kids are doing well, thanks rofthelper. =)
i wish the pain can just disappear, and i wish he could be more mature and stronger to take proper care of this patient, but yet on the other hand i know i shouldnt depend on him, on ANYONE anymore.. but yet i feel so tired.. i want so much to be taken care of for a change..
 
wait for the day that you will stop loving him? wah.... that will make things really good for him. He can flirt and fling all he wants.... Just keep the emotional attachments with you like what he has been doing thus far and you will stick to him regardless.

I hate to say it but you are really degrading yourself in ways without self worth. If you want to be treated better, then you need to earn that respect than throw it away like this.
 
stardust,

In my opinion that I shared earlier and I still hold on to it - is that you should have separated from him first - to find yourself before you decide what to do. Apparently, you proceeded to patch up with him without resolving your own 'internal-conflicts'. And yes, it will be going to bite you.

Still loving him is not an excuse or answer to be with him. Sometimes loving may mean letting him go.

You may never see it this way. But you chose to be in this situation.. so you cannot put all the blame on him in the future when things don't turn out right.

Remember, you may not be responsible for his infidelity but you are responsible for your actions after that. So long as you are clear on this and continue to be in this mode, it is your own choice.

Don't hope for a catalyst. It may never come. Catalyst can come from within.
 
hi stardust,

it's inspiring when i see the aunties leaving their husbands and having the cupport of the children...

but sometimes when i look at the auntie... i also remember that they are past a certain date and they will likely end up making frens in community centres or dying old alone...

and then i think of u. well, at the end of it if the Angels ask u if it was all worth it, i hope u have the right answer to it.

it's been awhile, i notice that this forum will have the yearly produce of wedding-inspired girls who are not very marriage-inspired. love inspired girls who are not very reality-inspired.

but that's life anyway... i just hope u dun have to sell tissue. so pls stay gainfully-employed and have your own set of life.
 
i suppose i am really asking for it. and i wouldnt be surprised if i get criticised here or anywhere else..i just cant find the strength anymore. everything is depleted..im in a runaway stage now.. just want to run and hide and not face reality. to some extent, i wish i didnt have kids..i have no means of supporting them. i dont have a regular job with a regular income anymore. there is no one on my side available to care for them when i need to put my time and effort in building up this new career. i have no money to arrange child care options for them. i feel so bounded by all the responsibilities and obligations i have toward them. and whenever i think this way, i feel such immense guilt that i've come to really hate myself for even thinking such thoughts, because frankly, i have even thought of simply packing myself and leaving everything behind.

im not sure how to put it in words now.. because everything's seem to be jumbled up. my mind is in a mess, i feel like sleeping all the time so that i wont have to handle all these mixed feelings.

how worthy am i now? nothing.. not even a good mother anymore because in order to run away from those thoughts, i bury myself in work so much so that even my mum drops seemingly innocent remarks like 'see? you've spent so little time with your son that now he's always throwing tantrums', and my mil who is in the full know of what has transpired ,still says things like 'mummy hasnt spent enough time with you huh..' do i even respect myself now? no ..

i didnt have time to recuperate and build up more energy.. and now i'm feeling the aftereffects..im physically and mentally drained.

i realise that the reason why i still cannot forgive and forget is because im still angry with him.. and still so very bitter and resentful.. and yet i dont know what can make all these feelings go away. i dont know what he can do to make these go away..and i dont have the luxury of time to delve into this.

btw the med didnt work.. it just made me feel worse.. and so i;ve stopped taking it, and i havent even got time to reschedule the dr's appt which i missed ..
 
stardust,

As I said, you never give yourself time and space to deal with the anger. You are still bitter and resentful as you said it.

You are not in the worst situation that I have seen. There are many many more in a worse situation than you. Don't make yourself any worse than you are.

Firstly, get a job. Financial independence is important. Get your hb to pay for child-care arrangement for them. Tell him you need to work.

Secondly, get a life yourself. I can't tell you how to let go of the anger or the resentment. But you have to do it yourself. You know, whatever anger that is in you is a useless emotion. It only weakens you. If you want to be stronger, you have to let it go. I can't teach you but I have been there and done that. Believing in yourself is very important.
 
just read sm and powder's posts after i posted the above..

yes - that was what i meant by not giving myself enough time to recuperate.. that was the major wrong move i made by returning so soon..and i recognise that this internal conflict is the result of that. which is what i blame myself for.. but i remind myself that i couldnt have the luxury of staying away.. baby is with me and my elder one is at home.. i had no permanant, somewhat or other, place to go and i missed my elder son so much..

i wont blame anyone else for my choice. staying together and working things out is indeed more difficult than staying apart to resolve our own problems first. but where would my children go? i cant leave them in my mil's care 24/7, and i cant ferry them back and forth when my appts end late in the night..and not forgetting i have zero savings right now.. i can scrape through if i leave alone, but not with my kids with me..

i know that i need to have a safety net of $$ before i can do anything else.. and that's why i cannot leave just like that as wel.. i dont intend to sell tissue..
happy.gif

im burying myself in work right now because i know i need to protect myself and my children first and foremost. and therefore i have to sacrifice time with them.. i know i may very well regret this in future, but yet i know i have no other way than this right now.. can u see why i feel so drained and tired.. i feel so torn apart..

i ask my friends out for coffee pretty often, and although it is time i could spend with my children, i also recognise the importance of having a support group should i eventually leave the marriage.. there are alot of preventive measures that i am taking now, and they are all competing for my limited time and energy..

if u ask what role hubby is playing in this tiring story.. he is trying, but i dont feel that it is enough.. unfortunately, this is probably his best effort.. or perhaps i am asking for too much..i dont know. and i wish i could say i dont care.. but sadly, i do, and therefore it is still an upward battle for me.
 
because i need a large amt of $$ and i need it soon, im in a comm based job that requires a hell lot of my time and effort and yet may garner no results in the near future. it is very discouraging, but i keep steeling myself for it. my social life is very well taken care of actually, so thats not a problem. i couldnt have a life earlier on because of my complicated pregnancy, and then during my maternity which is could very well leave the kids with my mil and go out on my own as and when i like..
 
btw there is no possibility of paying for anything more because he is on the verge of bankruptcy.. which is why i need a large amt of $$ soon.. to help him clear his debts, or help to provide for the family while he clears his debts, which may take 7-10 yrs. its not a small amt, and i dont know how much of that amt went to supporting that woman and her family. i refuse to allow him to declare bankruptcy on his own unless there is no other way out. i can live with a bankrupt husband and stay by him if he had come unto this through acceptable reasons, like failure of business ventures.. but not because of gambling and the supporting of his other woman and her family. i havent said it to him, but the fact is i will definitely leave him if he allows himself to bankruptcy without working to save himself from it. i dont want to say it because i know he will view it as im threatening him. he had on his own accord gotten help for credit counselling, but had been dragging his feet to do the necessary paperwork to prepare himself for the counselling session - granted, his dr said one of the adhd symptoms was procrastinating in doing paperwork. so ive been the one on his heels and even filled up part of the form for him. he was lamenting abt it that day and i lost it and asked him what has he got to lament about? his wife and kids are behind him and supporting him in this.. what more does he want?!

im just hoping to have enough strength to stay strong until this is resolved.. and then im going to claim what should have been given to me so very long ago.. resolution and closure.
 
so u're gonna stick around and clear his debts further? wasn't this something that happened years back? it's a vicious cycle dun u think?

let me tell u how i see the future... i see u trying to help him clear debts and by the time u think u're almost there... u will find out abt more debts he has incurred and perhaps he'll disappear on weekends to head to the casino... and the life thereafter is what u see on tv.

if u intend to save money for yourself, then make sure it's for yourself. not him, not others. i have no idea how your mind works in defence, but if it is to help him... then u WILL be that auntie i am talking abt...

i was willing to help u thru if u were willing to help yourself. but i have long disappeared becos i know exactly where u're headed almost every step of the way...

i still meet many men like your husband... having their own families, in debt, yet can still have mistresses and support them... u know HOW MANY such men i know? and u know their wives mostly have common thinking as u... if i told their wives, u think their wives will have the strength to leave them?

sad to say, sometimes they prefer not to know and live in denial... cos it's impossible not to even suspect.
 
hi stardust, it is never intended to insult. You cannot be bailing him out from everything. Let him face the music. If you want to be supportive and stick by him through it, do it. But, you don't need to beg, steal and do everything in pain to cushion it for him. Whatever the reason for bankruptcy, its past history, if you forgive him for his mistakes, then let it pass too.

Let him be a man and face it himself.
 
stardust...

all said. if u decide on this path, Dun Think anymore...

if u wanna think, then Why decide on this path? why not run thru the best possible scenarios that is the most realistic, based on everyone in it... and THEN make that decision?

one thing remains constant - everyone here still wishes the best outcome for u...
 
yoz stardust

considering that the situation is seemingly in a heap of mess, why don't you remove bit by bit? don't try to take on all of 'em by yourself... you know that you cannot cope with everything.

just concentrate solely on your career and continue to ensure that the kids are well maintained - which i know they would, because you're their mum.
 
Stardust, can't accept a failure or unpleasant situation as it is? Must fix it up and back to its original state? Can't move on?

Sometimes I am glad that failures had happened to me early as I had the opportunity to learn to deal with them early and have become more resilient in life.
 
stardust,

if loving this man is doing u more harm than gd, u’ll be far better off without him…

be kind to urself.
 
hi all,
yes i think what im doing now is just to handle things a little at a time. let him settle his debt problem first, and when that;s downm, i intend to suggest to seeing a marriage counsellor. i refuse to live my life wondering day in and day out where has the love gone, and simply wishing to run away all the time.
 
stardust, good to hear that you are taking things one step at a time. No point rushing things to work.

Now you got more priorities, your work and your 2 darlings.
 
the thing is, i dont feel safe and secure anymore. i have this fear and anxiety in me all the time.. and i dont like that feeling. he's done nothing secretive since the affair was exposed and it ended, to him we have moved on and that's all in the past. but i havent. issues are not closed and resolved yet. and i seriously think we have to see a counsellor. its either that or live our lives in misery
 
yoz stardust

you're still staring at the past, and wished that it had never happened. although painful, the past is one of those factors that teaches us to live for the present. even he is not being secretive and all, there's a high chance that you would allow the past to judge him unfairly.

we all make mistakes and poor judgement from time to time, stardust - whether it's pre- or post-wedding. so, the duration of togetherness is just academic. it's abt time to tell youself that since you really love him, it makes alot of sense to un-victimise yourself and look forward.

otherwise, leave with the kids.
 
The topic here is "Innocent Flirting" and in today's article in ST reported that Online affairs are becoming home wreckers. http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/SEAsia/Story/STIStory_549508.html

As much as technology helps to improve communication amongst people, it also helps towards breaking marriages, wrecking families, and ruining lives.

I wish more married men and women would realise how easy it is for innocent flirting to progress into destruction of the family and marriage.

You may be sure and confident that you're in control and it's just harmless joking but you never know what can happen. At the end of it, don't say "it just happened for no reason".
 
yes i totally agree that im still staring at the past. and yes! i keep telling myself that i mustn't see myself as a victim any longer and we need to move on for the future..! but i dont understand why i still hang on to the horrible memories.. my good friend told me it was because i didnt have a cool off period - i went back home before i could sort myself out. it was also probably because i feel that he hasnt done enough to gain my emotional forgiveness.

what i really want now is to go away and be alone for a while. but i have personal commitments that cannot be dropped. and i know for sure that he will never allow me to go off on my own - he'll think i'm trying to be difficult again.
 
The Internet did not help break marriages. Internet is into the lives in many ways. Naturally, it includes affairs as well. Might as well blame handphones and SMS for affairs. The list doesn't end. The causes of affairs are pretty the same... Just the exposure differs in this fast global age. Evolutions and techno advances will never stop... How one adopts and manage it is what it matters.
 
stardust,

u have created a very intricate web of deceit and denial for yourself... not sure when u will be able to undo it, or continue to live in it.
 
i know im walking along the edge of a cliff.. perhaps im being too much of a perfectionist.. and he's no longer perfect in my eyes. i have very strong values toward loyalty and faithfulness, and he has broken all my beliefs.

i'm very much trapped by my own feelings and emotions towards him and my family... how to undo everything? i cant do it alone.. as it is, its going to take very intricate work to locate the knot in this web before i can work on undoing it..

maybe im making a mountain out of a molehill...
 
let's just say u bought a toyota vios, try to bodykit the car, change exhaust, up the power, change the interior, change the rims and tyres to turn the whole car into some racing car... when u could have just sold it and bought a racing car instead.

this is gonna drag and drag and it's no longer the car nor the kit nor anything... it's now entirely the driver-owner.

Everytime u wanna sell the car, u decide since u've bought it, u make do... everytime u need the power, the car fails u... then u go back to thinking that the car isn't so powerful...

stardust, i have had a 2nd kid liao... since when we started... my older kid has turn 4 already... Life goes on, remember that. where u end, is gonna be where u wanna head Today...
 
hi stardust,

has your hb agreed to see a counsellor with you? you need to, i feel, to help you along the process and re-establish the trust that was lost.
 


that analogy was what i gave to myself actually..

i think he'll be open to seeing a counsellor with me.. but i need to handle one thing at a time.. we're in the midst of settling his debt now.. meanwhile i need to take this time to reassess everything..

i dont mean giving up on this marriage, this family - but eventually i dont want the kids to suffer the consequences of our actions. i know alot of ppl out there are totally capable of raising their children single handedly, but even a friend of mine told me that after a year since her divorce due to her hubby;s infidelity, she regretted acting rashly in insisting in a divorce. her son, although very well adjusted, is still affected by it because whenever a friend in his child care has both parents with him/her during their bday parties at school, he withdraws himself. and when it was his birthday and only his mother was present, he refused to participate in anything. this scenario is the last possible thing that i want to see happen. and that's why i need to exhaust all other possibilites in fixing this first. it seriously isnt easy, i fall back into mood swings and frankly, suicidal thoughts even and im totally ashamed of thinking that even, i still need to continue fixing this.

i just wish he would make it easier, but with with the problems he had created for himself, i'm probably not the first priority, when he's faced with the possibiity of bankruptcy, which i seriously do NOT wish to happen.

i know the choice is mine, but with any choice i make, i need to weigh the pros and cons, and im just trying to make the best out of a horrible situation..there may be many blind spots in my decision making, which is why i'm thankful that i have this avenue to post my progress, and also thankful that i made the decision to tell a few of my closest friends, whom i seek advice from. and they really are very good support for me these past few months.
 
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