Innocent flirting?

I don't quite agree that the HB is hopeless... his actions are really consistent with one who has betrayed his spouse. He just wants everything to be swept under the carpet... and start anew. It is of course not fair to stardust but then, this is the reality.

The person who can't afford to lose the marriage will have to work harder. This is the reality. A lot of people won't be able to take such nonsense and will walk out of the marriage. And yes, rightly so.

But who are we to judge her hb? She is obviously still very much in love with him and she is finding all the excuses for him. I think she can't afford to be depressed over the fail marriage. Whatever we say here count for nothing. She will still be what she wants to be.

Previously I have advised her on 2 courses of action. Plan A to continue to work on the marriage. Plan B to separate from her HB for a while.

I think right now PLan B is probably a more viable option. Just a separation to give her space and time. She is totally lost now. With her HB by her side, she will continue to find reasons to keep the marriage going.

And to stardust, You being there for him now is not helping him. If you want to help him, let him be without you. Let him learn the value of the family and the meaning of the marriage. Only when he has lost it will he be able to know what is important to him.

Actually the exposure of his affair is a necessary first step but to force the affair to an abrupt end may not be a good thing. I may be a little wicked as I guess that the affair may not end as yet.
 


the moral judgement here is weighing on the heavy side.

we want to save an image of ourselves and our loved ones because it is human. we cling to expectations because it keeps us steady. even if it's wrong to do so.

the one right step TS took was seeing a therapist.

the couple sessions may help but i feel that the one to one sessions are more crucial. to the benefit of stardust, they shouldn't stop.

the second thing she almost did right was recognizing the fact that her husband was unfaithful.

13 years is a long time, throw in her formative years as a teenager/young adult, it will take some time.

just my 2 cents worth.
 
I am not too sure about the right thing to do. Dealing with an affair and the aftermath of it... what is the right thing to do?

It really depends on the outcome we want.

I reserve my judgement on seeing a therapist. I have seen my fair share of them for various reaons. Mostly, it is extremely difficult for the therapist to help unless we want to help ourselves. And if we want to help ourselves, nothing can stop us.

The latest relevation about her HB having ADHD is a case in point. Why provide such speculative diagnosis.. I think it just add to the complexity. I think modern medicine is wonderful - the ability to diagnose many illness and give definition to many psychological or physiological disorder.. but in reality, at times, it is better not to know then to know. Especially so when the knowledge is used wrongly.

Time in a relatonship is not the defining factor. Her desire to give her HB another chance and to save her marriage may cloud her sense.
 
doctors like to diagnose patients with ADHD cos the commission they get from selling the medicine is higher.

if this is ADHD, a lot of men in Geylang need to get diagnosed too
 
“The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is.â€

~ Winston Churchill
 
"he told dr that the affair began because he pitied that woman - turned out how wrong he was. that woman needed no pity, she was more than capable of taking care of herself and her family - snag stupid men who willingly falls for her mechanisms. she doesnt have anything to lsoe - not even her morals since she doesnt have any in the first place."

Stardust, of course no one can stop you from passing a judgement on TOW but honestly, you should withhold your judgement. Don't forget, your husband was no less a willing party in the whole affair. If she was immoral, what then is he? Too sick in the head to have a sense of morals?

I am also shocked to read that you called men like your husband a SNAG just because he slept with a working girl. Both he and she had gained something out of the arrangement, and for that gain they gave something away. I don't know what you could call that other than a fair exchange of services. By the way, I don't see any SNAG behaviours in your husband toward you, so I am pretty sure he is anything but a SNAG.

While I can understand that you want to excuse him and his behaviours so that the fairytale could go on, but please, not at someone else's expenses including your own.

Stardust, you really need to STOP making him a victim out of this whole affair. Please wake up NOW and see things clearly. You cannot excuse yourself and him anymore.
 
yes stardust, you need to wake up, it's really for your own good.

i still maintain that a lot of your problems snowballed because you are too proud in many aspects.

Look at how proud you are: the woman who slept with your husband is the loose one. Your husband is the victim (ADHD, SNAG, fall for her mechanisms...mechanisms??). You are innocent bystander.

You are great. Your HB is great (since you chose him). It's the woman, she's immoral.

Yes you are the grand victim out of this whole thing. Continue to delude yourself, find excuses for your unfaithful husband and end up living the same life again.

I can almost guarantee you your husband is not over with this affair. And I can also see how he can give up being with a superior woman like you to one who truly sees him as he is.
 
Being proactive in learning how to manage her life, her feelings and her relationships, in my humble opinion is the right thing to do. Like gaining employment, seeing a therapist is a first step. Doesn't necessarily have to be therapy and medication. Granted these are merely surface changes for now and a lot more work has to be done, these changes tend to influence one’s overall outlook and esteem.

It starts somewhere. Where the present leads to from hereon has no guarantee.

Quite frankly, TS may run into the same problems again and again even if she does leave her husband, find a new man and settle down again. The issue lies in the self. Husband, the third party, mother in laws, pregnancy, loose and wrinkled pants are all external.

As for the husband, it seems, that he will stop when he wants to stop. If he doesn’t, he won’t. That’s his trip.
 
I have misread on the part about SNAG which was used to describe "hook" or "seduce", not acroymn for "sensitive new age guy". My apology.
 
not to invite moral judgement or a dismissal of my previously well meaning words. would like to share with TS a subjective account of what possibly makes your husband tick... what he could possibly be...

not to assume we’re made 100% from the same mould but since your description of him fits me to a tee, i believe, given the opportunity to cheat on you again, he will.

maybe not at this point of time, not yet, but when the opportunity comes and he thinks he can get away with it, he will. this time with improved measures, confident as always that she won’t discover it. He IS after all, smarter. at least that is what he thinks.

when she does, the same drama will enfold. he will deny at all cost (because that is what you do, you deny everything no matter how strong the other party comes on with the truth). admitting is akin to signing himself up for more and more problems.

when backed into a corner with nowhere else to turn, no more lies to tell, he admits (because the honesty and coming clean may win him some points).

he will promise to change, he will cry, beg and plead. i don’t think he’s putting on a show when he does it. genuinely scared and freaked out. but those moments will soon pass and before long, he’ll be back grooving to the same beat.

not because he doesn’t ‘love’ her. or doesn’t love her enough to practice permanent self restraint. deep down inside he probably believes he does though as we all know, in the grander scheme of understanding, deceit is not the mark of true love. it is possible for some of us to be with 2 or 3 at the same time. the guilt will be there, but not for long. besides, it’s perfectly fine to pursue these interests as long as we come home to where our heart lives.

when she was trapped in the suspicion stage during her pregnancy, he vehemently denied being unfaithful and she believed him. deep down it crossed his mind then, that she probably knew the truth, but due to the sheer amount of love she had for him, was willing to overlook his indiscretions as long as no one takes it out to the open. as long as he doesn't admit, at least the both of them can continue to exist together.

as for anything catastrophic enough to yank him out of this lifestyle/belief system/sheer immorality in the eyes of others, in order for him to wise up and stop so abruptly, i’d guess it’s something as drastic as losing a limb or growing a malignant tumor.

love and the history of it all alone isn’t enough, even with kids on the line and believe me, if she asks for divorce, he will oblige and then revel in the freedom soon after. he doesn’t need to come from a broken family, have an abusive childhood, grow up with a cheating parent in order to turn out this way. some gamblers, are natural luck pushers. it’s in their blood and in life, not everyone is driven by all consuming, unflinching love. there are bigger, bolder, brighter challenges and meaning to their existence.

love between a woman and a man, alone, can be overrated.

life is short. and to spend the rest of his life in misery, being punished for this, having to placate a needy wife day in and out is unimaginable. if life at home is hell and the sex is crap (yes it can get this shallow), what reason is there to stay? wake up and smell the coffee, his parents are not going to disown him (their own blood). sure they’ll be mad at him for a few years maybe, but nothing as drastic as severing of ties. a request to separate coming from her will ease his guilt (well i begged her to stay, she wants to give up, so this is her choice, ain’t mine, it’s beyond my control).

if he is trapped in this marriage due to financial reasons and or parental force, the likelihood of him cheating again and still staying with her is 100%. if she asks for a divorce, he will oblige and be secretly relieved. If she maintains status quo, the marriage remains miserable because even though the kids are great, it’s mostly guilt and being made to feel like a sinner 24/7 by his family and wife now. it can be downright exhausting and sometimes, even annoying.

if she’s 28 and he’s somewhere near the same age, a new life 4 or 5 years down the road is within reach. when he’s done sowing his wild oats and ready to start anew, that, is a possibility. just work harder, make more money, pay alimony, support the kids and gain a new start. why not? beats the hell out of being stuck in limbo like this with her. limbo is fine, but having to placate a suspicious wife everyday is gonna grate on his nerves and send him flying off again. and to be frank, the more she suspects, the worse she makes him feel, the higher the chance he will cheat again.

don’t ask me why. i can’t explain it either.

how to make him sit up, notice her as a woman, treasure her, look at her in the same light like he once did?

maybe when she grows some balls and shows he doesn't own her anymore. when he respects her again, maybe he will start to notice some value in her. but not now, not when he owns her and all she does is either cry, play victim, makes him see the doctor, makes him feel bad, or cause worry among his folks and hers.

and also, he doesn't think she’ll change. even if she does, who’s to say that change is enough to change him for the better and for good?

whatever it is, just want to share my thoughts if i were in his shoes right now. if it’s not even remotely close, take it with a pinch of salt and dismiss what I said.

no two human beings are alike in this world.

when pushed further over the edge, he’s probably going to pack up, leave, start afresh. the likelihood is even stronger should he meet a woman whom he loves and sees as marriage material further down the road.

i think the best bet if she wants him or cannot bear to leave him, is to close one eye, go easy because he will come home and fulfil his ‘duty’.

even a temporary separation is not enough to change him completely. a permanent divorce won’t either. it has got to be something bigger waiting to happen. when it does happen, he will clean up his act. until then, there is always tomorrow.

like what a forumer mentioned long ago, maybe his definition of marriage is simply very different from hers.
 
What powder has said earlier on, are very true. When my ex did such horrible things to be, just like star_dust's, more than once...my parents asked me the same set of questions: When you lose your ability to walk, who will be with you? When you meet with accidents in life, who will be there for yu? When you are happy/down, who shares them with you? When you die, who will help to bury you? .......

When I heard this list of questions posed by my parents, I pictured very clearly in my mind, the absence of this man. I know, very clearly and very sadly, he will just be absent, just like how he has been during our marriage. Whatever bullS things about TOW, inferiority complex, all these are just excuses he made up for us, and we made up for him. Ultimately, it boils down to the man's character. This is where the problem lies. Hence, after determining the most likely scenario based on my parents' questions, I decided to leave him alone to build up his character, while I continue with my life without the man. Anyway, why waste your time dwelling and pinning for a man, who will neither be here in marriage nor after marriage? It's detrimental for your health in the long run.....
 
confused09,

i think the insight bears much truth to the thoughts one might have in this position, maybe it's a guy thing, but without doubt holds more truth and likelihood than the romantic notions ladies often have abt their men.

i've seen several men fall, having been in the ktv/niteclub scene for over a decade... i dun like to say this, but Most times, it isn't love tat wake them up from their indiscretions... it is Fear. as for the other makings, i feel best not to reveal too much so as not to throw insecurities out...

Yes some men are naive... naive to think these gals Need them... i'm surprised most of these men think they are in a position to Protect and Pity, when most of these gals actually make more money than them, much less getting more 'pocket money' than them. it's particularly irritating when i see some guy who barely makes 5k, giving his money to a gal who gets 8-15k a month... how dumb can guys be? sometimes may be better off going to geylang and just spending that one-off $150.

anyway, unfortunately, local guys are naive... local ladies - even more naive to believe the naive guys. the blur leads the blur... but do note this is true for majority, a minority actually are more informed than the others.
 
like what another forumer mentioned, the one who wants or needs it more will be the one made to work harder.

and behavioral scientists will agree that he who cares the least usually controls the relationship.

catch 22 for hardworking puppies.

just my 2 cents worth.
 
i have decided to file for divorce. i love him so much still, but i dont think he understands how serious a mistake he made, and i dont want to continue my life with someone who doesnt love me enough to pull out all stops to make me forget, and give me happiness once more.

we'll be going on a trip sa a family soon, already booked so can't cancel. i've asked him to pls carry on as usual so that his parents would have a happy trip, and that our kids can at least enjoy one last holiday as a family. he agreed. we've been acting for the past 1 yr.. i think a couple of weeks more will not hurt.

its tearing me apart to have made this decision, but i do think its for the best unless he's willing to prove to me how much he loves me. dont ask me what i want him to do though, i dont think its my duty to tell him anymore..

but yet he's still telling me stuff like 'so its you who wants to leave now, not me, okay. i wanted to work on the marriage, now its you who wants a divorce'

i've given up on waiting to see the great gesture to tell me that i wasnt wrong in my choice of husband. i was waiting to see a change in him that tells me he loves me enough to make it up to me and to give me happiness for the rest of our lives. i was waiting to see in his eyes how thankful he is to have me and to be able to love me the way i deserve to be loved. but i guess he's not the kind of guy who has it in him to love like i do.

its so painful for me to make this decision - i love him as much as the day i married him, and the years before and after. and i love my sons - i feel like crying everytime i see them. i hope they understand how difficult it is for me to leave them, and how much more difficult it is for me to stay.
 
Stardust,

You had made the right choice. I am seriously happy for you. Even with the last words, he also did not do anything to salvage the marriage.

Better life awaits you! God bless you.
 
stardust,

I've been reading but not posting coz I felt tat u needed to go thru the process urself. Like I mentioned previously, my ex's behaviour was uncannily similar to your hb's. They may be great bfs, but they are not good husbands. Love alone cannot sustain the relationship. One-sided commitment cannot sustain the relationship. We need to acknowledge tat we made a wrong judgement call. No regrets but they juz are not husband material. Not yet anyway. They hv yet to comprehend the meaning of sharing of a life together.

I'm not gonna paint a rosy picture. It will not be easy letting go. The memories, the children, the living of a new life, all can overwhelm. However, u made a decision to be happy on your own. U are no longer reliant on his actions. It's a great step. No one knows wat the future holds. But I can guarantee u tat it will be much much happier than the emotional hell u are currently in. Simple logic yet hard to achieve. Be happy. It will spread to your children & the people around u. They will understand in time to come.
 
Stardust,

If you ask me upfront I would say it is not necessary to file for divorce immediately. But now seeing his response to you, it is obvious that his heart is not there.

But in reality there is really no need to file for divorce so quickly. You will still need to separate first unless you are filling for divorce using adultery as a reason.

Anyway, good luck. Try to separate and divorce as amicably as possible.
 
for me the most basic thing i'd need in a relationship is love... love that u can see n feel thru actions, little sacrifices and basically a thoughtful partner... no need to ask, and yet it continues to flow from my partner... no need to get angry, the boundaries are known without having to educate... in a great relationship - u simply dun need to communicate the Dos n Don'ts... being yourselves - u're already comfortable n happy.

stardust, he simply has no depth to see how his actions hurt u... he is a very "me" person.... "me" to the point of absolute self-centredness where life revolves around his pleasure and he is wrong only becos society says so, not becos he really feels he is. How do u tell a kid brought up amongst thieves - tat stealing is wrong, when he sees stealing as a way of life? u can reform, but will u be there for the finished product? will u be there to enjoy? even at this point where u're talking abt divorce - he IS pushing the blame to u... it's obvious he doesn't feel a tinge of guilt, he is conditioned to immediately assign blame to anyone but himself. it's a very huge flaw... it really is. so many months... wasn't there even just ONCE where he made some self-reflection and see his faults? i dun think it has ever happened. i really wonder how such a spiritually shallow person can hook up with an emotionally-rich girl like yourself?

end of the day this isn't abt me, it's abt u... but i must admit i'm really sick to the stomach to see u going thru this emotional abuse/blackmail over a sustained period...

i've been witness to guys who walk similar paths as him... having been in the sinful scenes for over a decade... i've seen a few fall, but generally most guys dun... those who do normally know where the lines are... yours dun seem to have any sense of guilt, but more of a fear of getting caught n losing face... now that's really really warped in values liao...
 
stardust,

dry ur tears and keep walking to get through this period of darkness. it's not easy but the only path for going through hardship is forward. so put one foot in front of the other and keep walking to the light. stay strong.
 
Hi Stardust

Good on you. I applaud your courage. You truly deserve better. No one owes you happiness except yourself. This is your first step to seek your own happiness.

Road ahead will be tough, attend church or spiritual classes to fill the vacuum in your heart. Though i may not understand all you are feeling, but at least i know the pain caused by betrayal and let-down.

You did all you can, it's time to let go and love yourself again. No tears is ever wasted, you came out a stronger stardust. God bless
happy.gif
 
Quote for you:-

There comes a point in your life when you realize:

Who matters,
Who never did,
Who won't anymore...
And who always will.
So, don't worry about people from your past,
there's a reason why they didn't make it to your future.
 
Hi stardust: I'm happy for you that you've reached a decision. Yes, life ahead might not be rosy, but at least you won't be terrorised into being a person who is into deception. That would be the ultimate detrimental self. Hence, do pick up your life from now, with your two lovely ones, I'm sure that you can move ahead with life.

If you want to rant, you can PM me LOL.

happy.gif
*Hugs*
happy.gif
 
thank you so much for the support. the moment i decided, i felt a strong sense of loss but yet some sort of a release. i would love more than anything to continue working on a happy marriage with him ,and to bring up our kids in a home full of love and forgiveness, but unfortunately up to this point, i dont think he really sees where he was wrong.

he asked me in these past two weeks, wasnt i happy? i answered yes i was. i was happy that he had come back, and in times of happiness, we felt so fortunate. but whenever we trip, he'd lose his temper, and i'd get the very familiar sense of hurt and pain, and i wonder why do i have to suffer all these uncertainties? everytime he loses his temper and gives me the cold shoulder, the feelings of neglect and loneliness overwhelms me, and they've become such good friends because they were always there in the past year, and they only serve to remind me of his betrayal. if only he could chase them all away and never let them return, then i could be happy. but unfortunately, he chooses to invite them back whenever he gets upset with me.

My friend advised me to go on the trip with a blind eyes and an open heart to see if he would expend the effort to undo all the wrongs and mend the hurt. if he manages to convince me, then perhaps we can give this marriage another shot. otherwise i dont think it's fair for me to stay on when i know these episodes will replay themselves again and again.

but would like to ask how much would i have to pay for the lawyer's fees? when i suggested splitting, he said why should he since i'm the one who wants a divorce. its not possible to file based on irreconcilable differences if both parties agree? i'd like for us to have joint custody since his mother is really the best person to take care of the kids.
 
stardust, I think you made the right decision by choosing to divorce your husband.

"but yet he's still telling me stuff like 'so its you who wants to leave now, not me, okay. i wanted to work on the marriage, now its you who wants a divorce"

From this sentence, it really shows that he never once self-reflected on his actions and how much hurt he caused you with his selfish and irresponsible behavior. He is more interested in pushing all the blame to you rather than acknowledging the wrong that he did to you.

Such self-centered people shouldn't even be married in the first place. You'd be much better off without him!
 
stardust,

Still the same advice for you.

Don't think about divorce right now. Divorce is just a legal step to take. If you are already bent on divorce, work out in a manner most to your suiting.

Don't divorce NOW because you want to run away. The pain is mental.. whether you divorce NOW or tomorrow, it makes no difference.

But to help you, I suggest you have to seriously think about separation and the interim care and control of the children. If you want custody (joint custody) and care and control eventually, you have to let him know and persuade him. There is no point to argue and fight in court.. just talk to him nicely.

If the divorce is amicable and no main issue, it should cost you around 3K for uncontested divorce. If it is contested the cost will escalate. So the best is to agree with him on the terms of separation and then divorce.

Even in divorce, it is possible for both of you to be great parents. But I do have serious reservation about your HB. He is so petty even with the legal fees - not at all a Man.

I don't think you can have immediate divorce based on irreconcilable differences. The grounds for divorce as follows:

a) That your spouse has committed adultery (i.e. had consensual sexual relations with a person other than yourself), and that you find it intolerable to live with him/her; and/or

(b) That your spouse has behaved in such a way that you cannot reasonably be expected to live with him/her (for example, your spouse has committed family violence against you); and/or

(c) That your spouse has deserted you for a continuous period of at least 2 years just before you start your divorce proceedings; and/or

(d) That you and your spouse have lived apart for a continuous period of at least 3 years just before you start divorce proceedings, and your spouse agrees to the divorce; and/or

(e) That you and your spouse have lived apart for a continuous period of at least 4 years just before you start divorce proceedings. In this case, your spouse does not need to agree to the divorce.

If you need more information visit

http://sgdivorce.multiply.com/

this is a website maintained by me with related legal information.
 
stardust, i am surprised how ur HB can be such a jerk, even to the stage of divorce proceedings. He dun even want to fork out the money to end this and insisted that u r the one who brought it upon urself.

But nonetheless, since u saw his true colours now, i should say congrats to u. but like wat simpleman said, dun hurry into getting a divorce. make it ur say and not his. quite obvious tt he's leaving u to die and will definitely fight for the rights of the kids.

however, nothing can be definite. try speaking to him about this thing and make sure it benefits u. dun harbour anymore thoughts about him turning back or stuff. pls kindly back out from the trip. u r not required to put up any show for anyone anymore. take control of ur life.
 
Hi Stardust

In Singapore, "irreconcilable differences" is not a possible ground for divorces; in fact, there is no such thing called "irreconcilable differences" here. So, like what SM has written, you have to "prove" the breakdown of your marriage based on any of the five facts he's listed.

I am with SM that you don't have to rush to divorce immediately. You can live separately from him first but do look into the terms of separation - custody of the children, maintenance of the children and perhaps how to divide up matrimonial assets.
 
dear stardust,


i second simpleman's advice. he has put it across more sensibly than i can.

take a breather for now and just walk away. allow your emotions to first settle before thinking about divorce.

"what one resists, persists. what one accepts, frees..."
 
Another thing.

It is useless nor pointless to bash the hb. He can be a jerk or ass-hole or selfish.. it does not matter.

There is a reason for separation before divorce. It helps us deal with the emotion separately from the divorce. The emotions are still raw. The hurt is there.. for many many months or for some, even years. Divorcing when emotions are highly charged may not be that productive.. A lot of couples ended up in court for longer than necessary.

Separation give you a sense of peace and allows you to get use to life without your spouse. And she has to deal with all the issues of living by herself (a reality in divorce), custody and care for her children etc etc..
 
the day after i voiced out divorce, he told he he doesnt want a divorce, but he will grant me one if i really want to because he knows everything that happened was his fault and he has no right to keep me if i really dont want to be with him anymore.

i told him i dont really wish to leave after all we've built up together the past so many years. but everytime he loses his temper and makes me feel hurt, all the memories and feelings i felt in the past year comes rushing back and his betrayal is fresh all over again. i asked him if he could change his temper from now onwards. make me happy, dont make me sad or hurt any longer, then i'll have a better chance of forgiving and forgetting sooner rather than later. he also requested me not to mention that incident any longer. he said i kept on passing comments that reminded him of it and he'd already tried his best to ignore but at times perhaps i push too far. he said he's been trying so hard to put this marriage back on track, and couldnt i see it? in some ways, yes, i know he's trying. he longer goes out - he comes back right after work and takes me to wherever i want to go, and sometimes he plans things for us to do. he takes me along when he has to meet customers outside in the night. his passport is in my possession and i have access to his phone and email and mails with no questions asked.

i could see in the past few days that he really tried so hard to keep his temper in check. even when i threw in a few comments he either just responded quickly and then moved on to something else, or else he would just ask if we could not talk about it otherwise we'd end up quarelling.

my friend told me to cool it and finish our therapy first before deciding anything. things are still raw now although on the surface, everything is fine and dandy. but i feel that this incident has shaken up the marriage, and although its very rocky, it is on the mend since now i know he wants to work on this as well, and we both have to put in alot of effort. hopefully by the end of the day, a newer, stronger marriage and relationship would emerge. meanwhile i'll have to try and curb my impulse of making comments on that issue, he has to control his temper and keep me happy, and we have to finish our sessions first.
 
remember that Effort, his Efforts... will have to be a lifelong commitment. if u can believe that he can overcome with effort, or that it will become 2nd nature for him to be more sensitive to u... then do the needful.

perhaps i'm sceptical by nature... but normally when pple say they'll change In Order to be given a chance... Half the motivation comes from wanting that chance... or from the need to maintain status quo... sometimes we're misled to think it's becos they love us.

it's not in the nature of some of my ex-gfrens to work and strive with me... it is in their nature to Not Work and just live off me. it made it necessary to breakup becos it doesn't fall in place with my goals in life.

anyway it's very much your decision again... live by love, die by love... life goes by and u age... youth is lost and innocence no longer apply.
 
Quoted from Powder
"perhaps i'm sceptical by nature... but normally when pple say they'll change In Order to be given a chance... Half the motivation comes from wanting that chance... or from the need to maintain status quo... sometimes we're misled to think it's becos they love us."

I also hope that I'm just being skeptical....
But a leopard never changes its spots.
Just like a person would use some words to buy the heart of others.
Talk is cheap. Period.
Action? Well, everyone can wayang, who can't? It's how long they can sustain. 1 yr? 2yrs? 5yrs? 10yrs? 20yrs?
My ex managed to wayang for another 5 yrs upon me giving him a chance.
Call me a skeptic, but I do believe that man/woman can lie and say sweet nothings with wayang.....for the benefit of maintaining a kind of status quo perhaps.
 
Talk ALONE is definitely cheap. But talk with commitment isn't that straight forward anymore. Its always a risk, a definite one. To take this risk or not, its up of the TS herself. We live only once. Choose wisely.
 
i went back to office today to retrieve some stuff, and my admin manager told me that a woman called about 2 weeks ago claiming that i had an affair with her husband. my admin manager had to tell my boss about this. the woman even mentioned my husband's name.

i got really worked up but yet had to pretend to laugh it off. my AM told me my boss initially showed concern about my integrity and morality, but she told him that i was definitely not that sort.

i called my husband immediately upon leaving the office and i was really worked up about it that his mistress brought my professional life into this! he then called her mother and the mother said that the call was made before he gave her the sum of money to leave us alone. the mother told him that i was the one who called her daughter and threw vulgarities at her and called her a cheap woman. but my hubby told her he doesnt believe and he knows i'm not that sort.i've never uttered a single vulgar word in my life! anyway he told her to make sure nothing of this sort would happen ever again. but i'm in fact worried because i dont know what she can be capable of! she knows who i am but i have no inkling how she even looks like. who's to say she wouldnt stalk me or physically hurt me in any way? and what about my son? she definitely knows how he looks like too because hubby has him on his phone wallpaper. i'm starting to get scared, i really am.

emotionally i was tortured, mentally i was destroyed, physically i was weakened and now my professional life is affected. he enjoyed his double life, why am i the one paying for his mistakes?

i know we've both made a decision to stay together and work on this, and therefore i know i have to expect remnants of his affair to surface from time and time again. have i chosen wisely? i dont know. i wouldnt know until the day i die. if i decide to leave, would that be the best choice? i still wouldnt know, until the day i die. i think every choice we make isnt the end, its the beginning of a new path where other sorts of choices will appear. i've done my part in giving him a last chance, if it doesnt work out eventually, then at least i know i've tried. its going to be difficult. having taking a step forward, sometimes i get knocked back two, but sometimes the walking is a breeze.

my emotions are still raw, but i think i've taken giant steps ahead already in the past 3 weeks since the affair was exposed. i think i ought to be given some credit for that.
 
hi stardust,

you and your husband seem to have progressed well in terms of healing your marriage... no matter what decision you make, it is a good one as long as you can live with no regrets.

did the woman's call to your office take place some time ago? if she harasses you again, please call the police. like you said, you have no idea what she might resort to.

i think you should perhaps even ask your husband if he can show you a photo of her. it will bring back bad memories for you, but it might be better for your safety.

just wondering anyway... why does your husband still have the woman's mother's contact number? wouldn't it be better if he deletes all their contact numbers?
 
she called my office that day after she called his hp and i answered and spoke to her. that was slightly more than 2 weeks ago and it was before my husband offered them the money to get out of our lives.acc to the mother, she hasnt tried contacting or done anything since she took the money although i strongly feel that the prank calls while i was in msia were from her.

i dont think he has a photo of her and even if he had, it would have been deleted off already.

he knows their numbers by heart. even i do now.

this issue is always the one which is pushing us apart. no matter how far we progress, this is like a spring mechanism. yday i took the opportunity to probe further. he said he fell for her some time in march but he wanted to end in some time in may/june last yr. when he started the affair, he already knew i was pregnant. how mesmerised he must have been by her to still have taken steps to start the affair even though he knew i was pregnant.i feel so useless and wretched.

i dont think i want to know anymore. its just too painful. now all i wish for is to work towards the future. the old relationship is dead and we both must change to start a new one together with our kids. i'm expecting trip-ups from time to time, and he's gotta be strong enough to support me through this like i've chosen to support him through his great fall. its not easy for me. in the midst of supporting him, i've got to push away all my insecurities, all my fears and my need to be protected and rise up to be there for him in his time of need. i wonder if he will be able to do the same for me. if i fall and he falls alongside with me, then really, i'm the only one who is working at this marriage. the returing home straight after work, the going out for movies, drinks, massages, suppers at night, the very obvious effort to curb his temper, the hand holding...etc are all very important moves to show me that he's working hard at the marriage. although i enjoy all these loving touches, they're still superficial. what i truly need is to see his determination and strength to support me, comfort me and be there for me when i trip up.

if a car travels at 120kn/h, how can one expect it to stop within 10m? stomping on the brake simply causes the car to lose control and fishtail, to destroy the brake pads? leaving tire marks all over the road and should it crash, everything is gone. i need intermittent braking - i know my goal is to stop, but the tactic has got to be correct, isnt it so?
 
You have a very weak will from the beginning....though u know what to do, but you kept giving in to all the thoughts from the past!!One day, you will wake up and realise all the pain, hatred.....are gone! And the marriage is meaningless cos there is no true bonding n togetherness anymore! But that day is yet to come. Thats why you are still in it! At times very rational, at times very emotional!
 
does he still love you? that's the most important thing.

if a man means to be unfaithful, the fact that his wife is pregnant is not going to stop him. just like how having a wife who does many things for him, who is always at his beck and call, is not going to make him faithful to her. you really need to remember this for the future...

for your marriage to heal properly, he must have strong feelings of love for you.

on your part, you can also try to stop making "comments" on the affair. i know you've been hurt really badly, but try not to bring it up every now and then during quarrels.

at the moment, and it's the same for any broken relationship, you just have to trust your husband and to look at his present actions as a positive step... but i suggest that he not call the woman or anyone in her family again. no matter what the woman is doing, just let the connection between them die.

if she dares slander you by calling your workplace, call the cops on her and let them handle it.
 
he says he loves me, but i dont know how much. i guess not enough.. or perhaps his capacity to love is just not as much as mine. i suppose its all about the fun and excitement. i'm trying very very hard to put it behind me, but the one great message that keeps popping up is that he doesnt love me enough. he's too weak - if he'd loved me the way he should have, no amount of temptation would fall him. doesnt love equate to strength? or am i still living in a fairytale land?

i suppose there is no use asking rhetotical questions. he was attracted to her. she was attracted to him. she fell in love with him. he fell in love with her. they ended up in bed together. period. i was nowhere in the equation. he totally forgot about me. i didnt exist in his heart when it was filled with her. i was pushed to the recesses of his mind. i was a zero, a non-entity. i suppose at that time he wished i didnt exist so that his conscience wouldnt be pricked. i was the third party in their relationship.

i feel like an object placed on top of a tilting surface. i keep sliding down. you catch me and place me on top again, and i stay for a while. but the next time you turn back, you realise i've slid down again and you again have to pick me up and replace me. sooner or later you'll get tired of it all and let me fall, when in the first place you know if you want me to stay where you put me, you shouldnt place me on a tilting surface at all!

i'm sorry if i sound negative, but i'm just in a very pensive mood now. it'll get better soon..
 
he loves himself Period.

and occasionally, he loves the CONCEPT that he has a wife n kids. u happen to be that wife... given a choice would he choose u? well i think given a choice he would not have gotten married.

but then again why did he get married? that's something most of us think we know but we dun really ever know at the ages that pple normally get married... there's never a Singular Reason - of Love. only a variety of reasons that gives u an advantage in marriage - freshness u thought would remain fresh...

anyway it's not the first roller coaster... there were past ones. i think u should just face it... u can't leave. u can pack your bags and walk out that door, but once u reach the lift, u'll always turn back. even when u go to your parents' place, he just need to come to pick u like - 2times, and u will relent.

u can't live without him. it's simple as that... so better to just realise that, than to try so hard to justify to yourself to stay... u dun need justification, u'll stay. Hokkien saying - Pa Si Buay Zao...

but since u've already made the decision to stay... u should really stop recollecting. u're really better off with a short memory, a very forgiving nature, or u should just kill your ideals abt how a husband should be.

if i decide a wife should be virtuous, does housework, cook decent food, handle kids, manage finances... and i picked Madonna to be my wife... i can't be blaming her rite? and if i mistakenly thought she can, and now i KNOW she cannot... then same question/decision applies rite? if i STILL want a virtuous wife who does housework, cook decent food, handle kids, manage finances... then i should let go of Madonna, or i accept her.

ps: i'm not the only person who thinks this way... in case u're keen to know, there's more than a few pple concerned abt your mental well-being and wonder why u trying to force a square peg into a hole.
 
yeah i think you're very right. i can't leave. or perhaps i'm too afraid to leave. i dont think i'll ever be the same if i have to live without him. both of us have changed along the years to fit into each other's lives, i'm too molded to him to be able to fly alone. i dont think this is the correct way to live, or the smartest way to live, but this is the way i chose to and i know i have to accept it. i love him too strongly and too fiercely to be able to give him up. and perhaps that's why i say, if he had to cheat on me, i wish he'd be colder and more cruel to just simply leave me, dont make me leave him.

i speak for myself - i've built my life around him. we have two kids that we love so much. i look at him and i think how much i love him, but i dont think he thinks that when he looks at me. we've struck a balance over this decade, but suddenly this balance was so horridly shifted that i've not balanced myself yet. i dont know how far he has.

i know he's remorseful, i know he regrets it, but if he had a choice to redo this past year, i dont know if he'll still go ahead with the same path he chose despite knowing how much pain and hurt he would bring me. but of course i know he went ahead with it with the risk that i would never find out, that he'd have his cake and eat it too, and ending it before i ever knew something wasnt right. little did he know he picked the wrong woman who was so persistent. a trip down to geylang would be much simpler, and much, much cheaper.

he went ahead knowing that he'd be taking the risk of passing who knows what disease she has to me and our unborn child. who knows how many partners she had before he stupidly came along and while she had him to herself? this is something that i find hard to forgive. - still trying!!

perhaps this episode would have been so explosive to him that he finally finds it in himself to understand the true meaning of responsibility, loyalty, faithfulness, and also the capacity to forgive. i know i've changed through this. i think he has too, i only hope for the better and our marriage can be stronger and even more meaningful than before.

i'm very clear about what i have to do, and i think alot lies on me to move this marriage along. as my counsellor friend told me, i've skipped a few stages in the reconciliation period because i made very quick decisions due to circumstances, and its normal for me to fall back into the past phase because i havent completely had closure for each stage in the aftermath. this is something i have to deal with alone and with the support of friends who are in the know.

although i dont know how the future will turn out, i know one thing for sure. i love my husband very very much, and even though he'd done something so wrong - not the actual affair, but the ultimate betrayal of my trust and how he made me doubt myself, made me guilty for doubting him, pushing all blame on me and saying i'm crazy, overly suspicious, doesnt trust him, saying that i'm forcing him to stay out drinking so that he doesnt have to face me crying, saying that if i push too far he'd really go and do something wrong, and all the other things that he said and did that pushed me into depression, leaving me lonely and neglected night after night, feeling that i was in the wrong for driving such a dependable hubby away.

i dont know who the stranger that i slept with for the past one year was - that was a monster, a very scary person. someone who threw stones at me after i fell into a well. someone who kicked at me after i tripped and fell.

i want my hubby back. i want to love him all over again. i want him to love me right now. i want my sons to grow up knowing that they are in a family full of security and forgiveness, a family that has a capacity to love so much so that all kinds of hurt can be dissolved. can he hear me?
 
Obviously he can't hear you.

If not you would be telling your long soliloquy to him right now, instead of telling this to some faceless, nameless strangers over the internet.

Sometimes I think weak-willed women and abusive men totally deserve each other. It's the perfect match made in hell.
 
Im very sure your husband already knew your weakness. You can't leave him. It's up to him to exploit your weakness.

Do you really think that year of nightmare is gone forever? I dun mean to be skeptical. But being a very self-centred husband whose needs comes before you and your family, there's a possibility that history will repeat itself and even so you will be the one standing at the original spot.

Your hubby is physically with you, but you can't feel his heart beat for you. As powder mentioned, he loves himself. Lowering your expectations from him saves your sanity. As triquetra says, if he can hear you, why are you telling us your deepest feelings? He is your real audience. But does he wants to know what you really need and feel?
 
eons ago (if i remember correctly), stardust did mention her husband is aware of this thread. and has read several entries penned by her and everyone here. let's hope he's still reading...

stardust, i'd like to share a quote from synecdoche new york with you.

"Everything is more complicated than you think. You only see a tenth of what is true.

There are a million little strings attached to every choice you make; you can destroy your life every time you choose. But maybe you won't know for twenty years. And you may never ever trace it to its source. And you only get one chance to play it out. Just try and figure out your own divorce. And they say there is no fate, but there is: it's what you create.

And even though the world goes on for eons and eons, you are only here for a fraction of a fraction of a second. Most of your time is spent being dead or not yet born. But while alive, you wait in vain, wasting years, for a phone call or a letter or a look from someone or something to make it all right. And it never comes or it seems to but it doesn't really.

And so you spend your time in vague regret or vaguer hope that something good will come along.

Something to make you feel connected, something to make you feel whole, something to make you feel loved.

And the truth is I feel so angry, and the truth is I feel so fvcking sad, and the truth is I've felt so fvcking hurt for so fvcking long and for just as long I've been pretending I'm OK, just to get along, just for, I don't know why, maybe because no one wants to hear about my misery, because they have their own.

Well, fvck everybody. Amen. "
 
You dun love your hubby anymore. U r living in the past of your still sweet n loving days. U love those moments n hope it will come back again. You love the hubby years years ago!!! one day u will wake up n realise the hubby u love is long gone!!! The man sleeping beside u is no longer the same man u love in your heart or in your past!!
 
Understand your position.

You are still very rational on your theories till this moment.. In fact every sentence you typed makes sense.

However.. women will forever be women. Certain things especially betrayal is possible to forgive but not possible to forget. The issue will haunt you forever. On one random day, you saw him chatting with a female client on the streets, will you think they are just friends or your imagination tells you they got something under the sleeves? Are you able to not even think they have any affair? Face this, you will not be able to trust him 100% like how u did in the past. If yes, you will not suspect his affair in the 1st place by a plain sms which is so random that most people will believe it-is-a-wrong-number.

You are a simple woman and easily content. You believe fairytales exist in this world. You believe what you want is so simple that all men can fulfill it. No reason why it is so difficult and your HB, being a normal man, can do it.

Women... can choose to be very stupid or very clever. I'm sure with your wits, you are able to find out the affair within 2 weeks after you see something is wrong with your HB. You chose to believe him because you chose to be stupid about all these. You chose that fairytales still exists. You love this man too much... and thus the amount of hurt on you when the truth discovered. Look at how much benefit of doubt you gave him, its until the extend that those little hints from him like "saying that if i push too far he'd really go and do something wrong" will not make you leave him.

Its all about timing. Fell in love in March, wanted to stop in May/Jun. If you can expose him in April, your HB will leave you for that woman for sure, will be gone for good. You exposed him only this year when he is emotionally drained by that woman. He cant stand her anymore and find you better out of 2.

You love this man a lot, we can understand. You can continue to love this man, no one can stop you. Right now I dun think anyone can separate you from your HB because u love him too much. Yes, the Hokkien "pa si buay zao" applies on you correctly. But not for your husband. Even if he tells u "Yes, I LOVE YOU", will you trust him 100%? I dun think so. When he bring you to everywhere now, you wonder how long will this continues. He let you have his passwords etc, you wonder how long will u be able to have the full accesss. You are still doubting.

Frankly speaking, men dun seemed to be very patient in nature. Dun expect them to be submissive to you for too long, they get tired easily. If you continue to behave this way, he will get sick.

Look, right now you already made your decision. We hope you can be street smart. Loving a man, regardless bastard or not, is not wrong. Just have to play smart because he has got a bad record.

Happy family can still exist as long as no one desert the role for your situation. Husband to love wife completely? Not too sure...
 
stardust,

"doesnt love equate to strength? or am i still living in a fairytale land?"

Human beings lapse. I wouldn't say that you're living in a fairytale land, but it also depends on the condition of your marriage at that time and on the personality of your husband.

"he was attracted to her. she was attracted to him. she fell in love with him. he fell in love with her. they ended up in bed together. period."

Attraction does not equal love. In fact, I'm sure you've seen this before in self-help books, men can have sex without love. He doesn't need to feel love for a woman to bed her.

"i dont know who the stranger that i slept with for the past one year was - that was a monster, a very scary person. someone who threw stones at me after i fell into a well. someone who kicked at me after i tripped and fell."

If there is anything you've said that sounds a bit like you're living in Lala land, this is it. Please don't make it sound as though the "monster" that you lived with in the past one year was not your husband, or "he was not behaving like himself".

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but the guy who slept with another woman was your husband. The guy who was mean and nasty to you was him. It was and is a part of his personality. You mustn't delude yourself.

If you want to continue with him, you must be prepared to accept him for what he is, instead of conjuring up an ideal image of him. What's happened should've told you already that your previous beliefs about him are somewhat inaccurate.

Your marriage can still work, but you should see him for what he is and take it from there. Don't let him manipulate you again.

Personally, I feel that a marriage is only meaningful if both parties feel happy and if their lives are enriched by having each other. If a marriage is so hard to maintain, and makes one party so angry, and the other so miserable, then what is the point?

And holding on to a marriage like that, is that love or is that just dependency and insecurity at work?

I know nothing that anyone says on this forum can dissuade you from staying with him, so I guess we can only wish you well in making your marriage work again... But I would encourage you to heal your self-esteem and have a more realistic understanding of your husband...
 


yes nothing can dissuade stardust from being with him.

so you will need to fall in love with a man who no longer loves you and find a way, everyday, tolive happily ever after.

no point looking for the man who used to love you because he is gone.

u are good at words but it would be more useful if you can use your brain.
 
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