RE : Questions for guys

powder, its never about proofing. Rather, building confidence. Confidence in matters and people that we can trust. That comes with practice rather than proof. No one is born confident in everything.

We as we get better, the confidence grows too. Of cos, not everything, we need to try it once before we gain confidence. The stronger we get, the more experience we are to handle new challenges. Its the same with everything. u ask any kid that hasn't walk to just ran and expect him not to fall? Cannot be right?

Its the same in areas of relationship. Everyone is at a different level. Just because we have been there, done it, doesn't give us no tolerance to others are still figuring it out. We want instant relationships, folks that are already experienced and mature. But where did that experience come from? I was a stupid stalker that follows that gal everyday for some months. Most people will probably discounted me as some freak and misfit of the world. Point is, why is all there all the negative assumptions over ONE single flaw?
 


sm,

exactly man... that's wat trust is abt - "if you trust your partner, you will know he/she is doing what he/she can do best in the circumstances - without the need to explain or reveal the reason."

explain, prove, explain, prove... some pple dun even have the capacity to look further than their whims and fancies for today... and then there's the myopic ones...
 
doll....
its never about right and wrong. we all know its never about getting it right all of the time nor proving how wrong our spouses are.

We need the flexibility in the way to manage things than saying this is right or wrong all of the time no?
 
"if you trust your partner, you will know he/she is doing what he/she can do best in the circumstances - without the need to explain or reveal the reason."

Did couples just suddenly achieve this stage of trust??? I repeat my question : "But, how is trust achieved & maintained between couples?"

1) How was it achieved?
2) How is it maintained?

You cannot talk about this level of trust with any tom dick and harry. It probably went through some level of mutual understanding and sharing to achieve trust in the very 1st place. Trust is built and not assumed.

Alot of proof that people are looking at the wors and things saidetc. But actually, subconsciously, most folks are actually more affected by the non verbal communication that is going on. Of all the playboys and conmans, most are expert in their body language in gaining instead trust from their victims.

All these accusation on an insecure partner when we are so guilty of being an ass harping on what rights over privacy blah blah blah. The next time, anyone discounts their spouse for behaving paranoid, 1st reflect over their own behavior. Don't make a mountain over his/her flaw and blind to how badly and not understanding we can be.
 
milo,

definitely disagree. what practice? u tell me soccer and sports i agree, u tell me maths i agree... even if u tell me sales/marketing i half-agree (cos u will lose credibility that will completely destroy u if u dun get it right fast enough), but relationship? dun think your analogy is apt for relationships. Trust & Confidence and Belief - are things u dun practice, there's nothing to practice. u either gain it or u dun, and once gained - u dun Need to constantly practice or reassure or prove. that's wat i'm saying...

yeah u stalked, but yeah tat's scary. but i doubt u didn't stalked less thru practice with the SAME partner (this is crucial - it has to be the Same Person for your theory to work). u need to learn that that's not the way, and it will be subsequent girls later that u changed, unlikely the same girl.

i can have less trust in 1 gfren, then i practise and i have more with the next and next. but in a marriage there's just u and the wife, in a relationship there's just u and the gfren... u practise where and with who?

if u didn't change u prob get nothing today.

it's not an assumption over 1 flaw, it's whether or not i would wnna take the risk that this HUGE FLAW (to me) - will never go away and haunt me for the rest of my life and marriage. i'm not gonna live with that cos it Impedes the very dreams and goals that i intend to achieve in my life. NO GIRL is ever worth me giving up the very purpose that i live.
 
milo,

it's very simple... u're married now. u SHOULD have complete trust NOW. do u? or are u still building?

if u are still building, at least i see where u're coming from... cos i would never have gotten married without complete trust. i would never have married if Proving this and that was still necessary in marriage.

maybe some pple marry THEN practise.
 
milo,

You asked how can a couple achieve trust? I would say during the initial courtship. once you got to the stage of marriage - there should already be trust.

I can't imagine myself marrying someone I don't trust..
 
bro, i disagree. We are trusting individuals not out of nothing. It has everything to do with our personality & character. How we handle the relationship and manage differences etc. If we are always defensive over our personal interests and proofing how wrong our mates are, its really simple logic to understand why they don't trust us.

That's really because we are proofing our mates otherwise.
 
sm,

"I would say during the initial courtship. once you got to the stage of marriage - there should already be trust."

exactly, but relationships don't always fall in the same systematic flow. I ensure mine did. But there is no rule for that. How many expect so things about the marriage only to be disappointed?
 
hi powder,

"it's very simple... u're married now. u SHOULD have complete trust NOW. do u? or are u still building?"

definitely in the aspect of trust, its not really building but maintenance. This is why I wanted to marry her in the 1st place. Someone that I can completely trust not to take advantage of me.

Actually, this is what I've been trying to put across all the long. Don't assume... Nothing wrong with having flaws. Whether it will remain as it is all the time depends alot of the individuals involved. We can spend alot of time saying how wrong or right my methods are. But, results speaks for itself. At least for me, it works. Its not a generic solution, but I'm asking for people to be less condemning over their spouses issues.
 
it is not privacy but how couples behave and communicate about their differences. Personal spaces and privacy are very subjective and different for everyone. We don't just expect instead of work things out.

Its the same for both privacy and insecurity. All these differs for everyone and needs to be worked out and not demanded nor expected. We don't speak of privacy as some super rights.
 
trust need to maintain wan meh?

u have it means u have it, u dun have it means u dun. if u lose it then u try to gain it back, but before u gain it back - u dun have it.

in between is there maintenance or need to prove? since u either have it or u dun?

dude, i say "my wife Trusts me".

i really dun know how to say "my wife trusts me as long as i maintain her trust"... the maintenance part is redundant. the trust cannot be conditional.
 
Everything must work out including basic personal rights such as privacy of information and private time/space. Sounds tiring.
 
no... maintenance meaning keeping the marriage going. Staying inline with goals and keeping communication flowing.

what's with this proving? Its something u keep mentioning not me. Its going to be tiring having to constantly prove. There is nothing to prove in a marriage. Just about remaining happy together and continuing to adapt to the situations. e.g. having kids, family / parents issues, career / finance advancement or crisis.

We tend to isolate insecurity like its a virus. But, in a mature relationship, its usually more than just a virus, its a symtom. A sign that the marriage has broken down. Regaining the trust would also come with rebuild the entire relationship. We cannot isolate it as some kind of disease. So, when someone doesn't trust me, I 1st reflect and not condemn the person. IF its because I causes someone to loses faith in me, then I need to wake up. Is this logic or greek to u?
 
Doll, sound tiring? These are the very fundamental differences and issues that couples struggle with because they assume and expect them. It isn't something so new. I go into a relationship expecting and knowing that difference is normal. What's important is finding someone compatible and inline. That doesn't mean finding someone that is exactly the same as me, that's impossible. I expect the difference even with someone compatible.

It is not just with spouses. With in laws, we expect even more differences in these so called basic stuffs.
 
milo,

the maintenance is dealing with insecurity and the constant assurances which would otherwise be un-needed with someone who is more secure and confident. dealing with insecurity in local context has alot to do with proving your love and commitment, if u haven't realise.

if u cause someone to lose the faith then the person has the right to be insecure - abt YOU. they dun get insecure abt everyone... But of cos, there's been numerous cases of ladies in this forum, justifying their insecurity with phrases like "i've been hurt before", "i've been betrayed before"... if u realise, just cos that ONE person does it to them, they are insecure abt the whole darn world. u have the time and patience to deal with this, maintain and assure, but i dun.

u either trust me or u dun, if u dun then dun date me and waste my freakin time needing my constant assurance and maintenance. i have absolutely no time for this... this is not the most romantic phrase, i know. i have my reasons for being cold instead of pretending to be otherwise... of cos, i know the right things to say to get a girl to go to bed with me.

your continued use of words to negate my views on insecurity is kinda working. "virus", "disease", "condemn"... wasn't in my narration. my only view is that i have no time for all these... i was never a fulltime husband, was i? 20/20/20/20/20... u try fitting all that maintenance, dealing with insecurity and assuring into 20% of your time only... like i said, i dun waste time.

at your deathbed u might have spent 60% of your time on wife, and maybe 50% of that time was assuring her... that's your finer moments and u feel good abt it. for me, i would die with absolute regret and hatred for my wife for taking away so much of my time spent on assuring her and proving my commitments na husbandry...

if i feel fcuked having such a gfren, i'll feel royally fcuked and screwed having made the gfren my wife.

the whole idea of insecurity being discussed isn't one caused by us... it's something inherent in the person from offset. When u know u're not wrong and u didn't cause anything - u're wasting time searching yourself, unless u have reason to feel guilty in the first place.

if i have no guilt, no fault, did not do anything to cause it, i will not search myself. i'm a sucker for self reflection, but i dun reflect myself when there's nothing to reflect. maybe the act of self-reflecting is the reason that makes u feel that u're loving the person, to me i'm better off breaking up.
 
"the whole idea of insecurity being discussed isn't one caused by us... it's something inherent in the person from offset. When u know u're not wrong and u didn't cause anything - u're wasting time searching yourself, unless u have reason to feel guilty in the first place."

This is what I have in mind too, that what we have been discussing at length is chronic insecurity that can potentially erode trust because you "blame" a new or current love for things an old one did. We are not talking about minor insecurity here, Milo, nor are we talking about insecurity resulted from acts by our partner that have directly breached our trust.
 
"Doll, sound tiring? These are the very fundamental differences and issues that couples struggle with because they assume and expect them. It isn't something so new. I go into a relationship expecting and knowing that difference is normal. What's important is finding someone compatible and inline. That doesn't mean finding someone that is exactly the same as me, that's impossible. I expect the difference even with someone compatible."

Yes, it would be extremely tiring IF I have to FIGHT for my freedom and privacy in a relationship. I thought we are done with that since our teenage years breaking free of the boundary set by authoritative figures like parents and teachers?
 
doll... is there a need to fight? There is no need to fight whenever there is a difference right? That's really the point. We expect differences and work it out. No need for extremes. And its not tiring as u may perceive.

It alot more tiring to discover differences through disputes instead of working on them ahead.
 
hi powder, u wrote : "if u cause someone to lose the faith then the person has the right to be insecure - abt YOU. they dun get insecure abt everyone"

This is precisely what I'm trying to put across. Insecurity is seen as a BIG flaw or weakness in the person's personality. But, I don't think its always the case. We look at the siutation to understand why the person is insecure. Being insecure can be a natural reaction to the situation the person is under. Do we go on to understand why or place a condemnation? That's really my point.

Actually, I'm on the same page as you about people that 'justify' their needs for proof of love etc. But, if faced with such a partner, I would really think hard if I should even continue. It is indeed tiring to spend time and again proving. And I would ask myself, what did I do to make her not trust me. I do understand where u r getting at.

However, I don't see every case to be like this. There is a alot bullshit and hiding to these behaviors. Both for the paranoid and the other partner. There are those that blame insecurity for everything.
 
Milo, for me, if the gaps are so great that I have to begin fighting for my freedom and privacy because my partner doesn't respect it, I simply will not stay in the relationship because it will definitely eat into me and consume my life. Call me ambitious, every aspect of my life has to function. I won't be happy to be able to only keep one man happy.
 
Doll,

for sure. No one likes fighting. If it has to be till a point of fighting, then I completely agree that its hard to work on such a relationship.

Maybe I'm more accomodating, but I don't find myself fighting hard at all. I just focus on what I need to remain happy and able to compromise and work things out without the need to zoom down to every single aspect. I don't need to remain 20% for each aspect for happiness.

As long as I'm respected & trust enough to have my personal breathing space to be really comfortable, its good enough. I don't need my friends and family to take 35 to 45% of my time. Neither do I need to limit my time with my wife to 15 to 25%.

I remember my friend's bdays, volunteerally meet them up to catch up or for hobbies and stay connected with them via internet and mobile. That's good enough for me. I will find it a chore needing to spend so much effort to balance things. I let each aspect of my life be natural.
 
Milo,

i'm gonna end it here with some differences, cos i believe there's no end. this is my personal view though...

some pple buy a Lancer... they add a spoiler, then stickers, bodykit, increase power, change rims + low profile tyres, do up the sound system, and along the way in their car ownership they will upgrade and improve the car further. they feel good being involved in the whole transformation and change, it is a happy ownership.

i prefer not to buy any car until i can afford a car that has everything i want Already included. so that i dun have to spend alot of time improving things when there's nothing to improve. i feel good abt my ownership becos it Already Is - flawless in my eyes and i accept it wholeheartedly. i dun need to change it nor beautify it. i have time for Other Things...

i have nothing against pple spending time and money on their car. i have no time to spend on my car, but i certainly have the money to buy better ones. this is quite similar to our topic...


REF - "Insecurity is seen as a BIG flaw or weakness in the person's personality. But, I don't think its always the case. We look at the siutation to understand why the person is insecure. Being insecure can be a natural reaction to the situation the person is under. Do we go on to understand why or place a condemnation?"

- dude, i understand the limitations of a Lancer, or an Avante. my choice is - i dun buy them... i'm not sure why i have to keep looking at the car, understand the limitations, and look at it again and again. i dun condemn them... as for the flaws, i know it's there and i'm not pointing them out... u ARE. i buy a {Porsche instead can??)

if i tell u i dun wanna look at them, can u stop assuming it's becos i condemn them? they are just not my cup of tea...
 
powder,

ha ha

I rather like you car analogy.

I would rather buy a M6 then do up all the stuff to make a car look/feel like a M6 - because it will never be.

But I think a relationship is not as simple as choosing a car. Or maybe you can choose a partner like you choose a car - many people may not be able to see and do that.. they will choose and live with the inperfections.
 
hey sm,

went to Stuttgart just now so the car analogy came naturally... but it's not so much the type of car that's the crux of the analogy... it's more the Choice.

it's the fact that i wanna buy a Porsche, i know i want a Porsche, the Porsche suits me... i've been wanting a Porsche all my life, i work hard to buy a Porsche... i never faltered from my path in achieving one.

some pple falter and lose confidence in themselves and settle for less. i dun. some pple think certain things are unattainable, i dun. some pple think there'll always be flaws but i think with the perfect persons - flaws are not even an issue, it's not visible nor do u need to change them. u ACCEPT them, than change/modify them.

i really can't appreciate pple asking me what's wrong with a Lancer, and why i dun choose one nor live with one, and why i condemn the Lancer... i never condemned the car, my best fren drives that car. i just dun fancy the car nor living my life driving this car and having to deal with the ownership of the car, that's all. i dun choose it does not mean i condemn it.

it's not abt imperfections, it's abt certain qualities which i can appreciate, and some weaknesses i'd rather not have to deal with. both cars can still bring u from A to B. on that accord, i Never wanna deal with Inherent Human Insecurity issues that requires me to prove, assure, give up my privacy and basically lose my rights as an Individual... all in the name of Love.

u can find 20yr-old Porsches around and pple still buy them... pple still look for the classics, owners keep them for years and dun ever sell them over COE/Tax issues. some of them cost more Today than yesterday.

a 25yr-old insecure but attractive Lady will have suitors. she can pry and demand alot of things an get away with it. she will be loved til 35 but beyond that, may not have the benefit of youthful beauty to have her insecurity overlooked.

cos an insecure 45yr-old lady is not gonna be attractive at all... u're not gonna be sexually attracted, there's no redeeming factors in dating such a person, at least for me. Hands-Up - the guys who would find a 45yr-old insecure lady who needs your constant time and attention and reassurance... attaractive enough to be with them.

for now, if u look young and attractive, pple overlook your major flaws. New Lancers will always have good sales... but between a 25yrs old Lancer and a 25yrs old Porsche... thing is... IF u had just ONE Chance of just ONE Choice of ONE Car... u would have chosen the Porsche. just work harder to save up and buy it.

most pple would buy the Lancer cos it's cheaper and fast to achieve. it's the same with Most things in life... those who take the 'easy route' of Degree and think they took a tough route. many still think Not Studying is the easy way out... but actually studying and wanting to be rewarded over and over again for a freakin paepr u got at 23yrs old - is just abt the laziest thing in this world.
 
powder,

I understand perfectly it is your choice and you can choose what you want.

But it is not necessary that everyone wants a porsche. Even rich people who can afford many porsches may not want porsches. I know of filthy rich people driving cheap cars - it is their choice and I see nothing wrong with that. and not necessary taking the easy way out as you have imagined.

For the record, I never want a porsche or desire one.
 
hi powder, for the record, it would u that came back with analogies and questions about my marriage and relationship with my wife. Not quite the other way. Which is the very reason why I'm explaining repeatedly that we need to look at the situation and decide.

Since, we are on the car analogy, let be deviated from the discussion. There was a time when Japanese cars are perceived as cheapo budget cars. Today, its clearly a different story. And tomorrow, u might be considering getting one. You cannot be so sure actually. There was a time I was wooing cute gals that are always in mini skirts. But, these cute gals don't appeal to me the same way anymore.
 
sm,

u misunderstood me. it has NOTHING to do with the car being cheap or expensive, nor affordability.

it's more abt how much we place faith in our pre-requisites for a life-partner and stay committed to it. if u grew up dreaming of Lancer, then a Lancer it will be... it does not make anyone lesser. there's no oneupmanship on this whole affair.

buying the Lancer is not taking the easy way out. settling for a Lancer when u've always wanted a Porsche - is. rem this is based on having only 1 chance - ie sorta like 1 chance in marriage.
 
milo,

1 thing - i was never personal. it was never abt u and your wife... when i use "you", it's not you you... my analogy wasn't personal. u're taking this whole insecurity thing as rather personal when the whole Insecurity thing was a general discussion.

it was never aimed at u, when i reply u, it's more becos u're trying to justify the cause of the insecurity... and i'm just telling u i CHOOSE not to deal with it from the start. then u say we have to understand the causes and it's not a virus, we should not condemn... then i tell u i have No Time for all these...

there was nothing personal. u choose to believe that everyone has flaws and u are fine with insecurity as a flaw... i simply choose pple whose flaws i dun see sticking out like a sore thumb, but insecurity is a no-no.

lastly - this is exactly what i'm saying. u're talking to me abt japanese cars and how they have improved. my choice is made... if we have only 1 choice of cars (ie 1 choice of wife)... which would u choose? i HAVE CHOSEN (ie i found what i want and i married the girl i have been looking for)... why are u still trying to convince me on the merits Otherwise?
 
ps: i saw beyond the cute girls/mini-skirt a long time ago... there's wasn't a flavour-of-the-month for me. it has always been wat's Inside a person - personality... and even if i did - i would not marry one cos our wives won't wear mini-skirts til they're in their 50s, and even if they did, the cute factor might diminish...

jap cars were never cheapo. they were just economical and created for the masses and marketed at the masses - ie quality & affordability, which they still are. i own a japanese car - Lexus aka Toyota.
 
"for sure. No one likes fighting. If it has to be till a point of fighting, then I completely agree that its hard to work on such a relationship."

Milo, when I said fight, I meant justify. Not everything needs justification; certain things are just so basic that there should be no question about them. For example, private time/space (for exercise, meet friends, or after hours client entertainment) and privacy (password to protect mobile phone, email/MSN access) are our basic rights; need justification? How tiring! If we haven't done anything wrong to our partner/spouse, why do we even have to justify that we should be trusted? Kinda ridiculous.

"Maybe I'm more accomodating, but I don't find myself fighting hard at all. I just focus on what I need to remain happy and able to compromise and work things out without the need to zoom down to every single aspect. I don't need to remain 20% for each aspect for happiness."

I don't know if you can rightly call that being accommodating when you also require the same amount of reassurance and justification from your spouse, besides providing your reassurance and justification to her?

"As long as I'm respected & trust enough to have my personal breathing space to be really comfortable, its good enough. I don't need my friends and family to take 35 to 45% of my time. Neither do I need to limit my time with my wife to 15 to 25%.

When we talked about 20%x5-aspects of life, it is just to articulate that these are our focal areas. We don't lose sight on any one aspect just to take care of another aspect. You take this concept literally, that's why it is beyond your imagination or comprehension why it can be a piece of cake to others. Also, if you have to report and justify all the time when you have to be away from your spouse/partner, this can hardly be called trust.

"I remember my friend's bdays, volunteerally meet them up to catch up or for hobbies and stay connected with them via internet and mobile. That's good enough for me. I will find it a chore needing to spend so much effort to balance things. I let each aspect of my life be natural."

When one has to keep justifying this and that, answer to this and that, pre-empt the reaction of our spouse/partner in whatever we do or not do, I don't know how natural can things really be.
 
Doll,

I really don't understand why you don't understand what I have said.

1) Did I even say I'm reporting to my wife???
2) Or that I'm expecting her to do so?
3) Or that anyone else must also report to their spouse?!?

Trust needs time & effort to build between people. When u trust someone already, you don't do all these building things. Its the same reason why when the trust is broken, it must be rebuild if they want to continue the relationship. No one can just assume trust. If it isn't there, then it needs to be build.

On maintaining a balance in various aspects, what I meant is that it has natural WITHOUT spending a lot of deliberate afford to maintain.

Really, I do not need to spend any effort on balancing or measuring what aspect. When I want to exercise, I go. And when I want to meet friends, I just go too. BUT, I will not be very upset if I don't meet my friends or do stuffs. Its completely natural without any need to monitor any balance.

I'm finding this emphasis on balance strange. No one have the same measurement of the balance. And no way for me to spend time with a partner that is telling me I'm taking too much of her time. Time couples spend together is natural and not forced. I will only find it tiring if I'm being imposed to either be with or apart from her over some stupid balance that she is trying to achieve. That, I see as self-impose reason to be upset. If you are happy with relationship, u r happy. If you aren't, no way to fake it one. Its as simple as that. Why the complicated idea that oh... while the relationship is happy but then realize, other aspects has been neglect, then it becomes a problem??

Having to sychronize expectations is not disrespecting our partners rights nor needs. In fact, its precisely because we respect the rights for different needs that we need to sycn it. You keep saying its tiring but I don't see why. Its alot more tiring to discover differences through conflict then anticipating them. You kept saying its basic. But is it really that basic and generic? Assumption is the mother of many screw ups. We allow this big ambiguity to mess up the relationship. Why? Because its basic?

Many women like their guy to understand and anticipate their needs. This level of understanding did not pop out of no where. Guy from Mars must learn how to listen and ask more. And Gal from Venus must learn to voice it and feedback more. All these are bread and butter for couples to understand each other. And the trust grows together in the relationship.
 
Milo, don't take this discussion personally. When I used "you", I don't mean you only. It's figure of speech. Even though you have shared about your relationship with wife, I wasn't addressing your situation specifically. Or would you rather I had used "he/she" (but I scared you would ask who I am referring to), "I" (but I scared you think I am referring to myself) or even "it" (but I scared you think I am referring to my pets)?
 
Doll, in the nutshell, we really just need to know what make us (and our partners) happy. Regardless its taking only 10% or 100% of our time.

If one is not happy, its not because there isn't balance but rather, we are not getting what we need to remain happy in our relationships / lives.
 
"If one is not happy, its not because there isn't balance but rather, we are not getting what we need to remain happy in our relationships / lives."

Milo, I won't be happy if only my relationship is successful whereas other areas fail.
 
Well, that's fine.

For me, I don't have such conditions. Success is not a condition for happiness. I have goals, be it in family, friends and career. But, I don't need to be successful before I gain happiness.
 
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