A Place for Singles

Does it mean that 3rd party surveys like the JD Power reports are totally irrelevant? It says that Hyundai ranks 3rd for quality but everyone here is still saying that Jap cars are more reliable... confused.. :P

All I know is that we dun have the means to buy an expensive car, be it conti, Jap or Korean. It's all about getting the best value for our money w/o sacrificing too much in terms of reliability and looks, else we will totally give up owning a car.
 


seriously speaking, those reports cant be trusted fully..cn only take it as a guide...n also one thing, buy car like buy anythings like electric appliances, if u suay, good brand also will give u problem..right?..
 
ah siao, if you say like that, then by the same logic, you're saying that it's not Sony's fault if 10 TVs out of 1000 is spoilt (just suay), but if the same thing happen to Akira, you say their brand is lousy (not cos by fluke). So if we cannot trust those reports, then what do we trust? Hearsy? Why do pple pay for surveys..furthermore JD powers is an authority in quality?
 
no, wat i mean is if u suay, u can buy those faulty items..but if its a good brand, quality is good, probability of faulty is much lower lor..

but korean cars are everywhere in sing...should not be tat bad lor
 
i trust the koreans, even though my korean products at home give way 1 by 1 after less than 3yrs of use... anyway things shuld spoil after few years lah... if not no excuse to change, keke
 
btw, how does these reports measure the quality?

Say... I buy a product completely functional and working for 4 yrs and another had a fault but covered under warranty. So it was replaced and it lasted me more than 10 yrs. So, which product have better quality?

I believe quality benchmark look into more of no. of defects detected either in the field by customers under warranty and during their stress test and QC analysis. What is not captured is the true duarability of the parts and product. There are some clues, say if it can't even pass standards, then the quality is surely suspected. But, if by these standards, most of the products in the market are in the super high regions, a 3rd & 4th might not differ that much.

For a Toyota, I have high confidence on receiving a working product that is at the same time durable.
For a Hyundai, I have some confidence on receiving a working product but I have some doubts on how long it lasts.
For a Chery, I have no confidence in both quality and durability.

The Japanese have an upperhand in this reputation of durablity which is not so easily measured. Just like the Thomson washing machine. I believe its durable cos my parents used it for yrs without any hassle. By looking at some reports, we will not have this information.
 
ggal, JD powers surveys and reports are reliable. However, I am not sure if you have interpreted it correctly for the purpose of determining overall quality or specific quality for the car you are interested in.

For the IQS (Initial quality survey) - this is the number of problems reported for new cars in the 1st 90 days of ownership. Hyundai did quite well as in the webpage shared by you.

However, there is another measurement (in fact more important I think) is the Vehicle dependability studies which measured the number of problems in the 1st three years of ownership.

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006133

There is yet another Forbes report that combined the JD powers surveys with consumer survey - taken into account 3 years ownership. All the nine cars on the list are japanese (mostly lexus and toyotas).

OK. Not to say Hyundai cars are not good. It is just that Japanese (especially toyota and lexus) are consistently in the top in all sorts of surveys regarding reliability.
 
Hi Simpleman,

interesting report.

basing on the report,
even lexus have an average of 1.36 problem in 3 yrs.

For the Land Rover, we can expect 4.38 problems in 3 yrs or basically running into problems every 8.2 months.

I'm very surprised that Saab is 2nd last in the list!
 
I think how we feel about a brand/car is really all about our preconception and first impression. If you never had a problem w a particular brand, you're going to say it's the most reliable, best brand there is. If you dun drive anything besides branded cars, you're going to say that any other brands dun measure up.

I also admit I have preconceptions abt M'sian, Thai and China made cars. But , now I feel that M'sian cars are not so bad.. they have improved and the quality and feel are better. Case in point: My hb's fren drove a Kancil for 8 yrs. He drove from JB to KL and from KL to Terengganu nearly on a weekly basis and never had a problem. Best of all, he cld still trade it in for RM5K for a Proton Waja after 8 yrs! BTW, the latest Waja is not bad...feels pretty gd and looks have improved also.

I guess at the end of the day, it depends on how much value we put on a brand, our pre-(or mis-) conception of a brand, and how open-minded we are. Maybe cos i'm not a driver... I have no brand loyalty yet.
 
ggal, Yes I believe how we feel about cars is personal and based on how we perceived and what is important to us for the car. Or mostly we are also affected by how others choose a car. Most people in singapore don't really choose a car - the car choose them in a way.

But there are certain facts and if we are objective then we cannot deny these facts. Cars are designed to last a long time - more than 10 years and even 20 years. However in singapore cars don't get that old.

I believe that toyota cars are very reliable - based not only on personal experience but also on objective reports and surveys that are being done every year. But that does not mean I will go out and buy a toyota all the time. I value reliability but to me toyota cars are boring - in their styling and handling.

I enjoy driving and that is a reason why I bought BM cos I know that they are not as reliable as toyota or lexus but they do excite me a lot more. But BM reliability is good enough - it doesnt really break down and it has good predictive diagnostic. I won't choose a merc cos it is to me more a car that places more on comfort and finishing rather than performance and handling.

Perceptions about cars although not real are important. Buying a car is as much an emotional experience as a rational one. And perception about quality and reliability will take a long time to correct. It will take a long time for Malaysian cars to reach a stage in which we will be perceived them to be good. Of course it does not help by the fact that Proton is now in serious trouble, losing market share and having outdated designs and engines.

The Koreans are doing much better. It took them 20+ years to reach today's high standard and yet they are still being perceived as not quite there yet.

The Japanese, especially Toyota have been world beaters. Toyota is already the most profitable car company in the world and by the end of this year it will overtake GM as the largest car manufacturer.

Perhaps if you feel so strongly about the quality of china or malaysia car, then you can consider buying one. But really why we don't really buy Malaysian car in SG? Yes partly it is a perception problem but it isnt going to go away tomorrow.

So, if you feel like having whatever car you want go ahead and do it. There are all the reviews to read and so many opinions that we have already shared here. Ultimately you decide what you want.
 
Yup simpleman...although I think you meant to say that if I feel so strongly abt China/M'sian cars I shld NOT consider buying one? One thing my hb's colleague said is quite true. If you dun think you like a car, you're less likely to want to maintain it.. so ultimately the car may not last as long as it shld..

After reading so many views, I have come to this conclusion.. SG drivers like Jap and conti cars cos of status and perceived reliability. It's like saying only branded schools are good and will more likely produce gd students... hahaha.. TRUE... More Likely. When neighbourhood schools produce top O level students, you wonder if this kid is a genius or it's by chance he was in that school.. the school gets little credit for producing that top student. Oh well.. such is SG life and mentality.

I'm sticking to cabbing for now
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talking abt msia cars, particularly Proton. I do not have confidence in a car manufacturer that continues selling the same car for this long. The wira hasn't change much since it adopted the design & engine from Lancer yrs back. Since the Lancer have changed their design no lesser than 3 times.

G-gal, I still don't think its abt Jap/conti/Koreans. Rather it is the individual consumer confidence over the quality/service of a car manufacturer or agent or the manufacturing pocesses of the company. Although the Toyota is my 1st personal car, I have driven not just one brand and my views are not fixed by only 1 single brand. I have driven Opels, Peugeots, Nissans, Mitsibushi too. In fact, I agree very much with Simpleman's comment on the boring designs of Toyotas. If not for the Yaris, I probably not gotten a Toyoto despite my confidence in them.

For sure, everyone have a different opinion, preference and perception. Buying a car is a big investment and we should select one that best fit our own requirement. For someone that changes car once every 3-4 yrs, just get something u like, reputation, maintenance etc aren't important. Instead, what's more important consideration is its resale value. On the other hand, if you intend to get a car to last for 10 yrs or more, than maintenance & durability becomes a key factor. I see your requirement more for a car that offers you flexiblity for both options... ie. a balance between durablity and resale. But the tough part is the budget part comes into the picture. Honestly, we can't have everything.

After reading all the views, its not useful to draw conclusions on what generally singaporean think but rather what is your unique requirement. Know what u need and want, then u should know your decision.
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morning...........tis morning traffic jam along nicol highway..near suntec area.....

the reason being.........a red Alfa 156 broke down...hehe
 
Morning...

ah siao... serious or not... ALFA... broke down...doesn't seem to gel... hmm.. old model?? ;)

Milo, ya I dun intend to use the car for more than 5 yrs. Hope to get a cheap one so I can upgrade later. Anyway, not in a hurry to buy so still looking around and comparing. Not ruling out 2nd hand too since we cld use for 2-3 yrs and get another one.
 
G gal...ya, its a red alfa..nope, not old model..the car at most few yrs nia..

alfa used to have engine problem in older days..they kind improve a lot now..but still..hmm
 
ah siao, better dun let powder see that.. haha.. :P

I also had to jog/walk to the MRT..:P Nearly late cos it's so nice to sleep in this weather..
 
hopefully tat one is not powder...haha....i think powder do know the history of alfa lar...

ya man..last night heavy rain...this morning cool weather..really feel like go back to zzzzzz
 
ggal, Think you have misunderstood my statement. What I meant is that if you feel strongly that chinese or malaysia cars are OK (ie they are quite good and value for money) then you should go ahead to buy it.

I agreement on the statement of car as a status symbol although not 100%. There is also the handling, comfort and other factors as well. Actually it doesnt really apply to me although I happen to drive one.

And second, we are not talking about perceived quality although it is applicable to some japanese car. We talked about toyota - that is not perceived quality. The report by JD power as you have highlighted and other reports confirmed Toyota's quality

Regarding this statement: "If you dun think you like a car, you're less likely to want to maintain it.. so ultimately the car may not last as long as it shld.."

Catch no ball leh. If you dun like the car why buy it in the first place and then continuiing not liking it and don't maintain it? What kind of person is this to have this type of logic?


And don't think the analogy to school is valid here. Good schools produced good students mainly because they have already the good students to begin with and they also have most of the better teachers. Actually I strongly opposed this and thought MOE should always provide distribute their best teachers equally among the schools. But the government has already gone too much with the elite school - what with independent school being able to pay and attract the best teachers. You also realized that the top schools have the best facilities.

BUt have to agree that Singaporeans are plain kia su and would always what their children in the best school, thinking it will produce better students. I happen to not to belong to this group of typical singaporeans. I would actually think that the achievement of neighbourhood is greater if they produce good student - not necessary only academically but as a all-rounder.

As milo has said, think of your requirements and needs and do what you think is good for you. For now cabbing, and maybe later a Avante or even a Proton?
 
Morning!

Ya, ah siao, early in the morning wanna start war izit? Any car also hv possibility of breaking down. I oso saw a Volvo at the road shoulder tis morning. The 6-wheeler kind.
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I owned an Alfa before... very emotional tempermental.. but good handling. But never break down on the road before .. mine the engine was ridiculously difficult to tune .. and overheating at times.

Still a very good car but may sulk and refused to work at times.. ha ha ha
 
Actually sometimes why a car breakdown is also due to driver. There are signals from the car and people ignore the signals .. then the car break down cos they could no longer take it.
 
laundry, yeah.. alfa can be liken to a woman.. but when she is in the mood.. it is really a very sweet car.

By the way, car agent call alfa - ah huai
 
Btw, ah siao, u sibei chao for many weeks liao leh. Aren't u ever gonna take a bath?

Simpleman, huai as in naughty/bad? Erm. So unglam name for Alfa. :P
 
"Good schools produced good students mainly because they have already the good students to begin with and they also have most of the better teachers."

simpleman, I don't really agree with this statement leh. teachers in the better schools are not necessarily better. yes they might have fared better during their school days and graduated with a glam-mer degree to command a higher pay, but they are not necessarily better teachers, i.e. they know their stuff, but can't teach effectively or can't be bothered to connect with the students. somehow I always have the impression that teachers in the non-elite schools are more dedicated and patient.

Perhaps my view is biased lah.
 
rara,

OK. I am not about to make a general sweeping statement. What I mean is that all things being equal, having "better teachers" - teachers with better grade, better qualification, more dedicated.. ALL things being equal should produce better teachers.

Of course there are people who are less qualified but they are more deidcated. I don't deny.

When I was studying in Sec School two of my "O" level teachers (they are good, dedicated and very knowledgedable) were poached to be posted to NJC. In return we got teachers just out of teacher's college. Our teachers told us they were not given choices, there were forced to go although they would prefer to stay at my school. They were told that they need good and experience teachers to "kick-start" NJC. NJC in those days is the pre-eminent JC. Fortunately the replacement young teachers are not that bad. Maths teacher was bad but our new chemistry teacher was good - very patient and dedicated. It helped that she like to wear short skirt as well.
 
simpleman, lol... no low cut buttoned blouse to go with? ;)

my teacher friends, whom i would like to believe can teach well and are dedicated, actually remarked that they prefer teaching in a non-elite environment. they prefer the kinda interaction they have with the students and the warmer, friendlier environment where students are less aloof. hmm... the irony is, we all came from the 'elite' schools.
 
Yup. Shld be ah huay.

Anyway, couple of days ago saw a red Ferrari waiting outside a house. Wah piang. How come the idling engine sound like lao pok chia one?? Freakingly loud & staccato-ed. Like those antique car sound. But once it gets moving, it's va va vroom lah.
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those cars engine really very loud one .. the lambos and lotus all super noisy.. but once they move off.. the speed and sound melts together.. haha!

hey whats the update to the next gathering? cancel liao huh?
 
I still look around, thinking there's another car somewhere. Sound & car dun gel leh. Heh.

Gathering postponed to 30 Mar (Fri). Details the same as far as I know.
 
RaRa, you're right, most teachers think it's good to move to an elite school, but once there, the stress level is incredible... not only from the school to maintain its status/ranking but also from the students who have the know-it-all attitude.

Simpleman, you said "What I meant is that if you feel strongly that chinese or malaysia cars are OK (ie they are quite good and value for money) then you should go ahead to buy it." I already said I dun like China/M'sia cars ( I admitted I am biased against them), so I dunno why you still ask me to go ahead and buy? Think you mistaken what I wrote.

"If you dun like the car why buy it in the first place and then continuiing not liking it and don't maintain it? What kind of person is this to have this type of logic?" Yes there are pple like this... they have no budget but want a car, so buy a cheap one which they have no feelings for and end up feeling sian to maintain it.

"And don't think the analogy to school is valid here" Sure it's valid... my pt is that it's tied to our mentality about brands...it must produce gd students cos it's an elite school. It must be reliable cos it's a branded.

"As milo has said, think of your requirements and needs and do what you think is good for you. For now cabbing, and maybe later a Avante or even a Proton?" I feel the last part is a bit condescending... why must I later get a Avante/Proton? Why not say I straightaway get an Alfa or BMW? ;)
 
ggal, wah u damn difficult to please leh.

Ok to the points.

If a read you correctly, at first you said you trusted Korean cars more than chinese/malaysian cars. And you even quoted reports that Hyundai cars are good. You admitted you are biased against chinese/malaysia cars then next sentence you said:

"But , now I feel that M'sian cars are not so bad.. they have improved and the quality and feel are better."

So I thought you are already accepting malaysian cars and thought they are OK?

And OK. my last statement can be construed as condescending but I don't mean to be-little you lah. Cos all the while you are arguing the case for korean (even malaysian) as opposed to our perceived reliability of toyotas and preceived status of continental cars. It seems to be that you placed a lot more on practicability (actually a very admirable quality) rather than on status and preceived "quality". As you said if you need a car it is for work and you want something reliable and value for money, I suppose?

So next to Cabbing, the last car you have mentioned being looked at is Avante, so I did the link-up. Proton was mentioned as you said that Malaysian cars have improved and their feel are better - so I thought you might consider.

You seemed not to have good impression of BMW as perhaps to you it is just a status symbol. Probably a lexus will suit you better? (Again that is also a status symbol).

But OK. I got your point. I apologised if I have sounded condescending. Maybe I change my statement?

For now cabbing, maybe later an Avante or Proton, or perhaps a Lexus?
 
normally play 30/60 cents... means $10 $20 for max.. but these few days entertain my friends.. they play 3 leg only... max only $1.60 $3.20.. haha!
 
Haha... simpleman, Lexus would be nice.. ;) I din say I dun have gd impression of BMW.. it's a gd brand what..

I did say that M'sian cars seem to have improved but I din say I want one. I still maintain that I trust Korean cars more than china/M'sian cars.

Still..it's hard to decide whether I shld part w $1K+ per mth on a car and give up all my other luxuries, so I say I'll stick to cabbing for now until it becomes really a need (say if I need to see clients everyday).

OK... you all talk abt MJ la.. dun argue abt cars already. Gotta work.
 
just a comment, 1st time drivers shouldn't get performance car to begin with.

With the additional power, experience in handling is required. First learn to walk before learning to run.
 
hmm... my family likes to gamble. my friends and i just like to play it for the thrill. and spend the whole night talking cock. :p
 


I used to play big and regularly.. not anymore.

Now ocassionally $1/$2 or $0.5/$1

Sometimes humour humour friends so play 30c/60c

No. I don't play with family so point wasting time killing your own brothes right? If no play money might as well watch DVD.
 
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