What should i do now?

"wonder if u guys abstain from tamago, half-boiled eggs, fish-roe, quail's eggs etc etc... Yeah, the chick has not been formed yet, nor the fish... "
Why should we? Are you feeling guilty for the pig or cow u r eating daily? Or the amount of 'life' our body naturally kill to remain healthy? Or are you a cannibal or something and wanting to cook some human?

This analogy is totally inappropriate. It probably has more relevance if you want to be a vegetarian. I'm talking about a pregnancy here. Another human in the making that is terminated because the parent don't want and allow the baby to be granted its life. I mentioned clearly it should be a question of capability and not what you want. We want many things in life but each comes with the consequence. The consequences is already here. She is pregnant, a life is formed. Her flesh and blood. We cannot reverse that. It already happens.

You don't tell the judge to let you go after committing crimes and expect to go free. Neither do we get a scapegoat to bear our consequences. There is no right or wrong? Not quite in this case. There could be reasons to make it understandable and difficult. But shifting our consequences away to others isn't the right thing to do. You know it too.
 


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"You don't tell the judge to let you go after committing crimes and expect to go free. Neither do we get a scapegoat to bear our consequences. There is no right or wrong? Not quite in this case. There could be reasons to make it understandable and difficult. But shifting our consequences away to others isn't the right thing to do. You know it too."

This is in reference of.....?
 
doll, this is in reference to Powder's post.

"Milo, she can choose to bear consequences of pregnancy, or consequences of abortion... both have consequence. i dun think 'selfish' is the word to use becos it's one of those Big decisions where there's no right or wrong. wat's right can be wrong in time to come, wat's wrong can be equally right. "
 
Doll, I really don't get you.

We are talking about shifting consequences. The consequence of sex -> pregnancy comes baby life -> Question on capability of being a parent.

If abortion not at the interest of the baby but rather simply because parent don't want to bear the responsibility to care for the baby -> baby becomes the scapegoat by losing its life not because parent is unable but rather don't want to.

The decision to sacrifice another over our own doing is a selfish one. It happens in life, we make hard decisions but nevertheless, its still a selfish decision.

Too complex meh? Why don't u link to his "tamago, half-boiled eggs, fish-roe, quail's eggs" analogy? That one, really I have no clue man.
 
Consciousness of the baby will enter the embryo at conception. Thus it is felt to be fully human at that moment. At 6weeks, the baby’s heartbeats can be detected via the ultrasound.

Many people don't recognize abortion to be murder (the definition of life being a personal belief rather than a scientific fact) because people cannot see and hear the embryo screaming out in pain. But there have been studies which show that the babies always frantically avoid the abortion instruments during the procedure. There are also countless cases of mothers going through hypnosis and found that the souls of the babies are still around and following them. What we cannot see with our eyes do not mean that they don’t happen or exist.

Whether people believe it or not, the souls of babies don’t just disappear after being aborted. They continue to exist, most probably linger around the family but left to fend for themselves. This is a very pitiful situation. Even though the body of the baby is created by the parents, they have no right to take it away from him.

A foetus is a baby, just that it is a small one. When given a chance, it will grow into a bigger baby who will cry and when even bigger, talk to you. Abortion denies the baby the chance from growing into a fully formed human being who will cry, laugh, eat, shit in the human realm. Since the baby is already conceived, why don’t be brave and deliver the baby? Who can judge that the baby won’t enjoy life because the parents are not married? Since already given him a life, why want to consider taking it away?

As for eggs, as long as it is a fertilised egg, it will have potential to become a fully formed life.

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powder, i don't need to humanize the fetus because i already consider it fully human. 'it' was used to denote gender neutrality.

i find you really conflicted. maybe nuanced is a better word. you say you don't advocate abortion, yet you were the one who suggested it to the TS. and if i may, the suggestion was totally out of context and inappropriate given her situation and decision to keep the baby. and although you allow for situational fluency to influence your pov, you have a hard rule when it comes to abortion after the first trimester.

no one can argue that the fetus is not a living thing. your distinction is between a life and a human being. you are ok to take away a life because, by your definition and understanding, it hasn't developed consciousness and therefore not fully human. (which by the way makes your references to fish roe and quail eggs contradictory.) so may i ask you if you also devalue the reason and purpose of the existence of a severely handicapped/retarded person? no matter what artificial distinction we put between a fetus and a human being, the fact remains that without the abortion, it has a good chance of developing into and becoming a baby.
 
This is an old-age debate. No point debating if foetus is human and abortion is murder. It all depends on the person having the baby and her spouse. We all have different beliefs and we can't impose them on others.

Obviously the law has considered the various aspect and for the "good" of most people. Abortion is legal and the mother has a choice. Don't make people unnecessary guilty of something that could have serious repercussions. And I am not talking about the "souls" of the aborted foetus. If you don't believe in "souls" you don't believe. But why put more pressure and make mother who choose to abort guilty. It is her own personal choice and she just have to deal with it.

Whether it is a selfish decision or not, who are we to judge. We are not in that position. If the mother loves the baby and is willing to devote time and attention to bringing up the baby even without marriage then so be it. But if the mother is not ready and not willing to bring the baby to this world, she should be allowed to make her choices without others trying to impose upon her.
 
sm, actually the opposite happened. after TS has decided to keep the child, folks suggested abortion and laid a major guilt trip on her supposed inability to properly care for the baby.
 
tomasulu,

I don't advocate her to go for abortion. It is a personal decision. However, while most of us are so aware of the "guilt" associated with abortion - it is not so clear-cut with regards to bringing up a child.

It is not child-play. But it is really up to TS.

But I am against bringing up a child to this world and not wanting it and giving it up for adoption.

If you don't want a child - use PROTECTION at all times.
 
Dear All,
I saw the heart-beat. it is amazing. i gav it life. d heart-beat is real.
whn i started habour flash thoughts of abortion, my womb wil ache. i know d bb nd me vry muc nw.
i m sadden by the fact tat the environment i m providing is less than ideal. my life is so unorthodox for my bb to start wif.
d bb hv a responsible father. but i cant say muc for his (bf's) mum. mayb she wil chg for the better or for the worst. i dont know. all i know nw is worry.
i worry my bb got to suffer the 'travelling' if d environment become less conducive for me.
yes, i can mov back to where i belong. but wat abt the father? as long as i m not splitting up wif him, i want him to play a fatherly role too.
evrythg now is me. d only solution is with me. hw much i can tolerate & sacrifice for peace. worst scenerio is i mov back to my mum hse n my bf will hv to com ovr. but this is not wat i wan. i wan a 'complete' pic wif evry1 ard for d bb.
i hv been strong aft my Dv. but d bb juz crumple it. i cant imagine these period without my bf ard. thought i dun luv him tat much, his mental support plays a big part.
my bf has agreed not to leave me alone wif his mum agn. be it he need to get out of the hse for awhile. i wil follow. i hv mak it a pt to go back wif him togther aft wk too. i told him i cant afford negative comment nw. i wish to minimise contact alone wif her n he agrees.
Powder is right. i invade into their life. she c her son no longer fussing ovr her life. out of a sudden, she is left wif nothing. i may empathise her somtimes. but i dont understd why the 'little' action behind her son. i can c it. i try ignoring but it did impact on me.
my mum ask me to go bk to her. my bf is nt expecting tis. i really cant hurt him lik tis...
 
sm, if you think about it, if not adoption then what? you can't unscramble a scrambled egg. and protection is a only good advice if you also happen to possess a time machine.
 
me? i won't worry too much about the physical environment. i am not sure there is even such a thing as an ideal environment... bed rest 100% of the time in a room with filtered air? take things one step at a time and try to have a positive outlook. may not be a bad idea to move back with your mum. you can decide on your relationship with your bf after your delivery.

all the best.
 
We are not imposing on anyone. Some mothers blur blur go for abortion w/o knowing the consequences. So we are just trying to share what we think and what we know. If after explaining, people still do not believe, then of course, there is nothing much we can do liao.

I am happy to read that myjunior is keeping her baby. Be strong as you have a long journey ahead of you and baby. If you need help, please feel free to let us know or refer to the motherhood forums.

All the best!
 
"d bb hv a responsible father. but i cant say muc for his (bf's) mum. mayb she wil chg for the better or for the worst. i dont know. all i know nw is worry."

Me?, your bf's a responsible father and you need only to ensure that you are a responsible mother. It's not realistic to expect others (like your bf's mom) to be nice too if she chooses not to. I mean in future are you going to worry yourself sick about whether your child will have nice teachers, nice classmates, nice boss, nice this and nice that?

Since you have decided to keep your baby, you should adopt a more positive outlook toward life. Don't forget, you are a life example to your child.
 
doll, powder's analogy really surprised me frankly. I was quite taken aback over his comments on this. Quite shocking. I agree with what tomasulu spoke about the artificial distinction we put between a fetus and a human being.

Its absolutely inappropriate to link consumption over food with abortion. Be it with life or not, we consume food for survival, this is part of the nature food chain. Which is why wasting food is really a no-no thing. i.e. we are killing other animals to waste. To somehow relate that to the human life in a fetus? If u r talking about a crocodile or natural predator preying on humans, its nature.

Not with humans killing their own fresh and blood over their own interests rather than the life itself. I'm puzzled that you said you immediately understand his analogy. Frankly, I don't. The link is really forced.
 
milo, mine not analogy leh... the foetus in the making is no different from the eggs or roe i mentioned... it's fact, not analogy
 
actually tomasulu, i dun think i laid a guilt-trip on her to seek abortion... dun know how u read tat to be honest. i would think it's most others who jump straight into the guilt-trip of an abortion, as opposed to wat i'm saying...
 
powder, u r no different from the duck I ate for lunch and the bacteria we breathe. Its also a fact not analogy.

If you go along this line. So, what is your point? We are talking about abortion here and you are linking that to be the same as food we consume. So, if someone is to murder you, he is no difference from a butcher slaughtering pigs. The link is completely inappropriate. Might as well relate killing pest like ants, rats or cockroaches with abortion. Since all got life what.
 
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Milo,
personally i feel that powder has been very consistent in what he's saying leh. I won't say that's the most appropriate "analogy/fact" he has used, but u shud see where he's coming from and all he has said in its entirety (even if u are not in agreement) rather than pin-point on the "analogy" right?

anyway, we shouldn't turn this thread into a discussion on "pro-life? pro-choice?". We all know there won't be any conclusion/agreement on this topic which has been debated/discussed for years. If we can, we should be spending our time finding some darn good IP lawyers and making ourselves v rich. So let's focus on trying to help TS see the different views which she may not have considered and making a correct decision for herself that she can live with. What say?
 
seriously, if we want to debate about foetus.. it is never ending.

But really it is not an artificial distinction we put between a foetus and a human. There are very different.

The status of the embryo in the first trimester is clearly pre-human. Medically, it is just a lump of cells not much different from other cells from the mother's body. It has a potential to be a human being but it is not yet human.

It is in fact far more primitive than a frog or a fish. It is NOT an unborn-child yet.
 
"Being a mother will makes u stronger... All the best"

Being a mother CAN make you stronger. But it does not mean not being a mother will make you weaker.
 
You know we are very close to being able to "clone humans".. and those cells that are being clone - they are not much different from the cells in a mother's womb in the 1st trimester.

So is the 'clone cells" human? It is not. Like the embryo, it is just a lump of cells. It has no consciousness - nothing. It has no right. Everyday, many of these cells are being cloned in the lab and destroyed - these are exactly the cells that are similar to what a mother is carrying in the 1st trimester. These researchers are all murderers?
 
milo

I don't think powder is making a direct analogy. He is looking at the concept of "potential" vs "actuality". A embryo in the 1st trimester is not-human yet. It has the potential to be one if the mother allows it.
 
An embryo is a multicellular diploid eukaryote in its earliest stage of development, from the time of first cell division until birth, hatching, or germination. In humans, it is called an embryo until about eight weeks after fertilization, and from then it is instead called a fetus.

Week 1-3 The embryo's growth centers around an axis, which will become the spine and spinal cord. The brain, spinal cord, heart, and gastrointestinal tract begin to form.

Week 4-5 Neurogenesis is underway, showing brain activity at about the 6th week. "The heart will begin to beat around the same time. Limb buds appear where the arms and legs will grow later. The brain develops into five areas. Tissue formation occurs that develops into the vertebra and some other bones. The heart starts to beat and blood starts to flow.

Week 6-8 The embryo is capable of motion, and the eyes begin to form. Hair has started to form along with all essential organs. Facial features are beginning to develop. At the end of the 8th week, the embryonic stage is over, and the fetal stage begins.

So, it is more than just a bunch of cells and tissue.
 
1st trimester is 1st-12th week of pregnancy. At 6th week, heartbeat can be heard loudly from ultrasound and the heart can be seen beating, ie moving.

Although there is consciousness at the moment of conception, the cells are not developed enough yet such that movements can be seen. But the fact is, the consciousness is there.
 
sm, the very reason why the technology in human cloning is illegal. Its way too controversial.

There was a time when everyone thinks that the earth is flat. Today, science tells u its 6th week. Tomorrow, we may find new evidence that human life begin even earlier. Does it ease to guilt to rely on science to tell you if your baby is human yet before you kill it?

To me, its about being responsible for our actions. It doesn't matter if its 3 weeks, 6 weeks, 12 weeks or 12 yrs old. We bring life to our fresh and blood. We don't just hope to reverse it in hope that science defines it as a potential human.
 
Kent & lois lane
do u read the difference? "if we can", and stated prior was my assumption that it's not possible, "so we can't".
Yes i know the difference. Do u know the difference between a serious tone and a joke?
Anyway if we can really find a way to conclude with no controversy, i'm sure there remains possibilities of getting an IP for the "idea".
 
Milo - Hi 5!

People think that Science is very advanced now but actually it is just at the infant stage. There are million of things out there that Science is not advanced enough to prove it, not that these things do not happen or exist.

There are many things we cannot see with our human eye like X-rays and UV rays. But they do exist rt?

A human life is conceived because of actions of the parents. When that happens, it is irreversible and we must answer to our actions. Not by terminating it like getting rid of the evidence of a mistake but by delivering it, nurture it and love it. As long as have a pair of hands and can work and there is the will, definitely we can bring up the baby.
 
"the very reason why the technology in human cloning is illegal."

Milo, what is illegal or immoral today may not be so in some years to come.
 
Doll, people are drown in cages centuries back for normal social activities today. We speak in context of the today's society. So what if its not immoral or illegal tomorrow. We are speaking as modern people in this growing environment and not as aliens or people from a different era or something of that sort.

And we need to admit that we know limitation of our understanding with science. Science doesn't rule everything either.
 
milo, it's really not an analogy leh... dun really get u, but i believe u letting your firm beliefs Lead your judgment.

beliefs and principles should not be used to judge, consequences and repercussions make better gauges than beliefs.

we dun have to stick to our beliefs simply becos it is our beliefs... there has been many situations in our life where our beliefs and principles are challenged, and they were rightly challenged... and from there emerges a greater understanding of Life and its contradictions.

it is your choice to call it murder, it is my choice to call it an abortion... we all have our terms. like i've known u to be abit of a black & white person, the numerous times we have arguments is becos i am colourless, whilst u are either black or white. i dun even consider myself grey, i have no colour, thus i look at all colours...
 
hi powder, its not about judgement. To me, its being honest about our own actions and responsibilities. Trying to see science or analogies to call it potential human doesn't change anything about the responsibilities involved. Agree?

I don't call it murder either. I also call it abortion. Just as I call it slaughter when you kill for food. But to relate it to food and say that's a fact its not the same. As already explained, we slaughter animals for food, this is part of the normal food chain. I don't agree with how you relate an human fetus with the human food chain. In the say way, I could also relate you to slaughtered animals?
 
milo,

Yes but obviously the LAW TODAY is very clear that it is perfectly legal to have abortion (up to certain number of weeks).

This is the law. We live in a society gover by law when we couldn't agree on other more subjective opinions.. It is the law. Why must we artificially impose our "morals" on it - because we believe it to be the case and make other people guilty.

So, no point saying we taking a life or even a murderer because we are not - according to the law. If we don't follow the law, then what? Your words against mine?
 
nemo,

You can say anything you like.. bla bla bla.. But it does not change the fact that we have a right to choose abortion. The mother has a right. Don't put unnecessary guilty feelings on others my imposing our views. It is your view. Fullstop.

If the TS wants to keep the baby and is obviously happy to keep it - so be it. She just has to be aware and be committed to taking care of the child for the next 20 years.
 
milo,

Human cloning is illegal but not stem cells cloning. A lot of research are bordering on grey areas that the law has not define yet.

Already we can clone humans - the technology is there. The problem is to keep it alive because the clone is "too perfect" a clone that it lacks something that science cannot answer today. But the days of cloning won't be far.
 
sm, i have never disputed the freedom of choice. as i explain before. we make hard decisions in life. the situation might make it tough and less straight forward. but when we make these decision, we dun pretend its nothing. and its no difference with killing for food and its somehow not our flesh and blood but only a potential.

anyway, i just receive saf100 for overseas trip this morning. will be away in roc for solid 3 weeks rotting away talking cock endlessly and with expidd rates. browsing the web or phonecalls home will be too costly. it really sucks big time. damn bloody low morale!
 
milo,

it's Not an analogy. it's a simple and direct comparison...

i agree abt "being honest about our own actions and responsibilities", but u must understand that the action and responsibility u're expecting here is Your standards... tio bo?

i offered it as an option/suggestion. i'm not pushing it as a must-do principle/responsibility... i am saying we should alos look ahead into the future, BECOS responsibility for a life Does Not just end at conceiving a life... u also have to feed, clothe, nurture and see to it that this life is given not just a chance to live, but a chance to live fully...

alot of pple talk abt life until the point of giving birth to it, BUT not many actually think beyond...

and i'm not using science to justify anything, i made a comparison and shared an opinion. not to Push for a must-do, but to offer Further exploration, visualisation, and to basically cover the aspects that Most pple fail to see.

i do not relate a human foetus with the human food chain, i related the human foetus with animal foetus/egg.

All said, i'm more than happy that TS gives birth to another life... i'm just more concerned abt her life & options in this thread. it does not mean i dun value life... so pls dun get it mixed up.
 
"we dun pretend its nothing."

- actually everyone knows the implications and i certainly dun pretend it's nothing... tat's why this has been one of the biggest arguments in life...

for certain religious groups, Condoms are 'not allowed', but being from groups tat forbid condoms... i do not agree with it. i dun have to agree in order to belong, nor do u need to aggressively disagree to belong to your beliefs.
 
i hate it when people scream FACT FACT　FACT when the FACTS they allude to are really mere opinions.

a fetus is a lump of cells? geez, tell me something i don't already know. i mean, aren't we all lumps of cells? consciousness? by definition consciousness is a subjective experience or awareness. simple logic says you can't establish an argument on the "facts" of a subjective experience.

some issues for the pro abortion folks or sit-on-the-fence part-time situationally-dependent abortionist to think about -
1. do you consider it to be murder if someone perform a late-term abortion?
2. however you distinguish between "lump of cells" and a full human, should we apply that same distinction to people who have became so due to illness or accident?
 
who? me?
second half of your point 2: that's another big discussion/debate/argument that has been going on for years - if your loved one is in a situation where some call it "better dead than alive suffering", and wants u to pull the plug, can u? will u? should u? It's another one of those scenarios with no correct answers...
 
powder, however you call it, it was insensitive to suggest abortion to someone who wants to keep her unborn despite trying circumstances.
 
if u put it out as a "hate it" statement, it's tainted with emotions. what u;re sharing is a mere opinion as well, isn't it? just that it is a more accepted fact to u than to others... just as others have accepted certain facts that aren't in line with yours...

your questions are invalid becos it does not apply to my suggestion in situation nor in principle.

your logic applies for now, it may not apply for the future. your answers may be good for now, but it does not answer the future...

the problem here is not whether we agree, it's how far we see and how many aspects are we able to cover in our vision in emotional, physical, psychological, lifestyle, spiritual etc etc...

i cannot help u see what u are blind to, and i dun mean it in a condescending manner. But fact is, most pple here only see Life and talk abt giving this life a chance...

unfortunately, on the other hand, not many pple seem to practise that in their own lives, with their own lives... so saying u should give life a chance, does not immediately make u this saintly person who is pro-life IF u're living a lie.

it extends beyond simple comprehension and logic, and extends beyond the generic right/wrongs, it extends beyond the comperhension of those who merely repeat what is right to say, but do not see what is ahead and of a greater good.

i'm pretty sure some of those who are pro-life in abortion discussions, may take on a pro-death stance in cases of serial/psychotic killers. so we should not identify with a stand and think we have the stand, cos no stand is definite and nothing is written so clearly in black on white.

tomasulu, u are arguing a stand. when i offered an option via suggestion... A suggestion need not be my stand, a suggestion is based on possible options, recommended or otherwise - which again depends on the opinion of pple.

her decision to keep the child is hers, none of us can take ownership of that. just that i'm seeing further, and i also see the source of her thoughts now as being momentarily romantic in notion and part of the nature of her gender.
 


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