I am at a loss

T

thots

New Member
I need to release some of my pressure.

My sister owes more than $90000 from banks. She wants to sell my dad’s house but I managed to persuade my dad not to sell. Her gross salary is only $2000. She just bought a car last year and will not be able to sell it off. She just met an accident and the car was badly damaged.
She is not able to sell the car now because she will be breaking the contract as it is not 3 years yet.

I ask her to go Credit Counselling. She refused. I asked to call banks and ask for monthly payment but she told me she can only managed about $300 a month. After some calculations, I realized she has to pay minimum $4000 month. There is no way she can afford that.

I have sourced around. Attend Credit Counselling Talk. My gross salary is only slightly more than hers. There is no way I can pay $3700 a month. I have raised $25000 from good friends. I plan to take a loan but I think I can only get about $8000 based on my salary. It is still way below the debt. I need to clear off some of the higher interest first.

I don’t know who to talk to. I cry silently most of the time now. This sister makes me think I am the one owing the debt. Her bad attitude makes me feel I am foolish.
She has not done anything till now. I think I will die off first before her.

I have the called the banks for latest statement but they refused to tell me because I am not the card holder. She has not called them yet.
The $90000 is already past one month so I think it should be more than that now base on interest. She owes more than 7 banks about 16 accounts.

Friends tell me not to help. I did not incur the debt. I should let her be bankrupt. If she doesn’t want to, let the banks declare her.
She should solve it herself otherwise she will repeat the problem again. I don’t know why I can’t leave it. She is my sister. I have to help. Dad said I must help her. I am at a loss. I can’t afford. I don’t know where to go. After taking up the loan, I will be on a tight belt as well but I can’t get more than one loan because if I do, I will be in trouble as I can’t pay.

Is there any place that offers very low interest rate?

I know I am foolish. I am doing too much. I should let her handle but she tells me she wants to die. What can I do? My dad will hate me and put the blame on me should anything happen to her. I also don't want anything to happen to her. She is my only sister and I love her.

I am at a loss. am i wrong to help?
 


Hi Thots,

She is earning 2 k per month and still own a car? She really know how to live in Luxury life man..
Right now, Is she in depression? She seem not bothered and assume you will help her.

How the hell she can own so much?
 
You shouldn't help by owning her problems for her, by taking away her problems from her. She will not learn to be responsible this way.
 
Hi snowy,

She has overtime allowance previously until this year. Not so sure about depression. She isn't doing anything that's why i decided to call the banks. I was quite hurt when she told me I am her sister. I should help her. Her debts are due to gambling and shares.

Hi doll,

I understand what you are talking. My dad wanted to sell the house. I managed to convince him not to but I am not sure if he will when I still can't raise the sum.
 
Hi Thots,

Do u hav any siblings who can help out together wif u?? I am havg tis case too...whr my youngest bro is jus 18 yrs old n he has been lending frm loan shark...prev time was like 20k n me n my bro helped him...thn again tis time he lend anoter 20k n my parent wants us to help him again...n my bro even keep askg us to buy him a car...if not he wil buy himself but v knw endup v d one who wil pay for it!!its hard not to say "NO" coz he is my bro...n its even hard whn yr parent as u to help..so i do reali ustand yr feeling coz i hav been tying my belt too..but yrs is way too much...mayb u can try talkg to d bank n tel them yr max instalment??is tat can b done??tel them if not thy wil not recover any amt coz yr sis not able to pay...i believe thy wil wan bk d $$ too...
 
hi sad_gal,

My sister is the only sibling I have so I am the only person to help.

The banks want the card holder to call. I feel helpless.

Did you bought the car for your brother in the end?
 
u shld not, as a result of helping her, end yourself in deep sh*t or worse, in debt as well - like that who is going to look after your parents?

I think if you want to help or being siblings, be obligated, offer to help pay a certain % or pay off a lump sum eg: 1K to 2K - depending on your affordability and thats it. She ought to learn to be responsible for your actions and not expect some one to clean up her sh*t.

If she have to be declared a bankrupt -so be it. In any case, being a bankrupt does not equal to end of the world, it does only mean, you have to sober up and face the reality and work out your finances. In a certain light, I think it will do her alot of good.

And tell your father dun ever be swayed to sell off the flat to get cash. You help her this once - she may still be prone for another time - maybe this time larger sum? How many HDB flats do you have to sell to get cash? In any case, one must learn to be responsible for one's actions.

And for yourself, please know your limit and i hope you don't think of lending from loan sharks - this will only open another can of worms. Sit down with her and tell her firmly that all you can offer is so much and no more.

The rest, is up to her, it is up to her to talk to the banks to make out a payment arrangement. Please think of yourself and your parents - they need your care as well.
 
thots,
How old is your sister? She need to be responsible for all this mess. You cant be soft hearted.. In helping her. How much can you help?
It is a big sum. I think i can have that amount in my bank despite working throughout my whole life.
 
hi thots,
nov did not buy any car for him but let him use my bro car...but he stil not satisfy...
n as wat my frens say, he is too rely on us n knw v wil help...thus he wil not learn any lesson but its hard to say NO...
oh yah don ever tink of loan shark...thy doncare thy jus wan $$ n earn interest...tats wat happen v keep tol d loan shark do not lend to my broo, but yet again n again thy lend...coz thy oso knw v wil help my bro to pay...my parents oso same as yr dad, almos wanna sell d hse....but v say no...yah btw how old is yr sis???
 
Hi Le gros ours,

Yes, that is why I don't want to take more than 1 loan. I will not be able to handle.

Snowy, sad_girl,

My sister is old enough to think. She is 27.
 
Thots, She should be sensible enough.. I know how you feel but then in logical point. How long can you help or rather how long u can support her..

don get yourself in deep shit. . It seems like she still didnt learn.
 
This is your sister's problem. The thing is, she doesn't seemed to be remorseful at all for incurring such a big debt and further more, she feels that it is your responsibility as a sibling to help her deal with it. By not even wanting to attend credit counseling or speaking to the banks to work out a repayment scheme for her debts, it shows that she is either in some form of denial or is simply bochap and feels that she is entitled to help from you guys. Thus, by helping her..you are 'harming' her. She has to help herself and be responsible for the debt that she has incurred..not you.

I agree with le gros' suggestion ..u should help her only to a certain extent..help her pay off a certain percentage of the month debts or clear of some of her loan..she should be responsible for majority of the debt herself. You have borrowed 25k from your friends to help and and after that, you still need to look for ways of repaying them..not her. And it isn't as if you are earning that much and look..you have your own life to live too..You have to tell your dad too that u will help as much as u can..but only within your means. Not to the extent where u start incurring debts of your own! The rest of the family could help too they want to assist her (but not by selling their house lah!) Just help within your means. But more importantly, your sis have to bear majority of the responsibility.

And yes, if need be, then she should be made a bankrupt. Pple have gotten out of bankruptcy before and it really isn't the end of the world. She will thus have to learn it the hard way.

I was sorta in your situation before so i understand. My brother had incurred a huge debt (abt $250k) due to his gambling habits and reckless spending. His wife threatened to leave him upon discovering this(as he'd also took money from their joint savings a/c to gamble). Initially, we were so angry with him and we wanted to have him declared a bankrupt but my mom pleaded with us to help him. So in the end, us siblings worked together to help him with his problem. He was truly remorseful and at least, he made an effort to try to solve his debt problems himself..We helped him to clear some of the more urgent debts(those by the loansharks) using our savings and he approached the banks to work on a repayment scheme for his credit card debts which he managed to clear after a few years. He also attended counselling sessions. When he made a profit selling his home, he immediately repaid us the money that was loaned to him. After the incident, he had changed for the better and my sis-in-law even said that he was a more responsible man..
 
thots,

the debt is Not the problem... it just takes time. the problem is her character and thinking... and based on what u say, halfway thru paying the 90k, she'll likely incur another 90k elsewhere... then another, and another...

u HAVE TO BE very careful... and re-think your initial thoughts.

i have seen such pple drag the whole family along with them for years and even decades... IF they dun even realise their mistake, they dun even realise they're wrong... then What good would your help do?

the way i see it, and this one is likely to happen.... - u'll be in debt, your parents will have to sell their house, and nothing is gonna happen except she moves out and leave u guys to clear the sh!t.

the problem is serious becos she earns 2k yet can have the idea of buying a car, and incurring 90k debt. when she's on 5k, she'll buy a 1.5million condo if she can... she's also likely to be the type who take over pple's BMWs (typical jokers who cant' afford to maintain but bought the car, then lease to their frens to pay instalment for them), and Sooner or later IF she wants to maintain her lifestyle and isn't earning much... she'll might have to take semi-unlawful routes...

let her go bankrupt.

u need to tell your dad the inevitable. u cannot save stupidity without letting the consequences come thru...
 
and ONE very impt lesson in life is - u can only help if u have the Capacity to help. this hole is too big for u to fill becos she's using an excavator to dig holes whilst u're using a pail to fill the hole. simple maths will tell u the result is Not a smaller hole, but a bigger one...

her mentality is the excavator...
 
Thanks for listening and advice.

She bought the car without my knowledge last year. I discouraged her. I told her if she buys the car, I will not help her if she fails to pay for the installment. She still went ahead, asking my dad along to view the car. When I asked her, she told me she had overtime allowance so she can cope with the car. I did warn her about what IF there is no overtime. She didn’t heed any of my words. She didn’t even dare to tell me her debts. My dad told me. She knows I have warned her about credit cards debts ever since I saw her applying for the first card. She didn’t even open up her bills until I forced her.

After this incident, I learn much more about debts management. I ran here and there sourcing information and help. I cry in silence. As much as I want to let go, my dad begs me. He loves her very much. I feel he loves her more than me. I have talked to both of them nicely but ended up in serious argument. My dad told me he would disown me and chase me out of the house if I refuse to help. They thought I must be some of kind of wonder to be able to raise the money.

As for my sister, I broke down in front of her during the weekend because I can’t handle it. I asked her to talk to banks for a repayment scheme. She didn’t. That’s why I called up the banks.
 
thots,
i am very sad for u...once, my bro broke down n cry in front of my youngest bro too....n u knw wat i tink yr dad tink u can solve tis prob...its jus all parent will b so helpg n side their youngest kid...90k is reali a lot...haiz...how how how??i am tinkg hard for u..
 
What about your mom? Is she able to help mediate and talk some sense to your dad..why does he think that you are able to help. Surely he will know that it would merely mean that her debt will be 'transfered to you' since it is obvious that you are taking loans to clear her debt..not that u have ready cash to help out. And he's fine with it?
 
Hi Thots,

Be strong. You have a very important and heavy role to play. You have to speak sense to 2 people.

1. Your dad. Explain to him why declaring bankrupcy is the best solution. He must not condone your sister's behaviour otherwise this may not the last 90k. If he loves her, he must lead her to the right path.

2. Your sister. Have a good talk with her. Explain that going bankrupt is not the end of the world. She needs to be responsible for her own actions and debts. There is only so much you can help. She may have a compulsive behaviour disorder so professional help may be needed.

No matter what, never never go to loan sharks.

This must be a very stressful time period for you.

Pray and seek solace in your religion to give you strength.

All the best.
 
hi sad_gal,

that's why i am at a loss.

Hi Siobhan,

my mum had passed away when i was a kid.

Hi Nemo,

I have talked to my sister to declare bankruptcy. She has to be responsible for her actions. When I see her attitude, it makes me think whether I am in the wrong.
 
she's family, so you should help...but that's 90 big ones you're talking about...if you raise this amount, whose debt will it be to return later? since your dad wants to sell his place, then discuss with him where will he live after that..work out with reason, don't just cast blame and they'll soon realise what they are dealing with...let your sis know that you cannot have access to her debt info and banks and such will not speak to you, only she can work this with them...the thing to bear in mind that you shouldn't transfer her debt to you, else you too will be sucked in....best wishes...
 
thots: is she your younger or older sister? May I ask who is the guarantor of all her loans, esp the Hire Purchase Loan? Was the monnies incurred as a result of her hire purchase loan or was it incurred as a result of her credit card usage? There should be a limit and/or ceiling for credit card loans and under the new ruiling, the max limit is capped. If she chalked up the loan under Hire Purchase, in the usual case, the bank will towed away the car and she can work out an instalment plan with the bank.. Personal opinion: I think one will never learn their lessons until they go about in knowing how to resolve the issues themselves.. She created the trouble, hence, either she choose the bankruptcy route or work out an instalment plan with the bank..
 
Hi clipperjunk,

My sister said she can get another flat and pay by CPF. I said no. I seem to be talking to the wall.

I am asking my sister to try to sell off the car. It is a huge liability but she keeps telling me she has signed a contract which she can only sell the car after 3 years. Otherwise, will have to pay the amount. I don't owe a car and tried to source for information but don't quite understand this. I even suggested if can't sell, perhaps can get some friends to take over first.

Buy is easy, maintenance is a problem. I wonder why people agree to sign, sign, sign, loan, loan, loan, buy, buy, buy without thinking of the consequences.
 
"My sister said she can get another flat and pay by CPF"

I'm sure HDB and banks will reject her house loan applications given her current financial status. Without loan eligibility letter from HDB/bank, it is impossible for her to book a flat. You can rebuke her with this. It's obvious that she trying to coax your dad to sell off house to settle her debts with the flat promise.

Clipper brought up a good point. You can ask your dad about where will the family stay after selling house off etc? Let him see the dark pit your family will fall into. We wouldn't want to create more problems for the sake of solving one problem.

If your sis can't pay up for her car instalments, her car will be repossessed by her creditor no matter it's less 3 years or more than 3 years.
 
the car is definitely gonna be Impossible to sell without incurring a huge loss... she will be selling with a huge negative and there will be penalty incurred on the loan. the only way to deal with it, is to let someone else take over the instalment and use it... BUT - not many pple would do that.
 
Learn to write off bad debts. A car is a liability anyway. When u buy a 90k car, u already committed up-front 105k regardless u use it for 1 month or 10 yrs.

It will be a loss but not as big as selling away all your assets to offset a liability!

You can advise her on alternative solutions but stop babysitting her. Its time she learn how to manage her own issues. She is 27 not 17!
 
green, thanks for the explanation.

i think i can foresee she will ask me to use my cpf to buy the flat if i rebuke her with that.

powder, ya i thought about this too. Nobody will want to takeover the car. The car is a problem.
 
Thots, what kind of contract can only sell car 3 years later?

To share with you, I had a bro who has been in debts for more than 10 years, due to gambling and shares. My family has been helpign to pay off his debts - few hundred Ks, to a point, we decided to stop coz he know that there's always someone to fall back on when he needs money. And without learning his lessons all these while, he continues to spend and gamble despite having a family with 2 young kids. Today, our family has given up on him. Whenever he asks for money, we say no. The minimum that we can do for him is to buy things for his kids, and my mum will sometimes buy daily groceries for his family.

This kind of people will know how to think till they suffer. If they don't suffer, the family will suffer. Back then, if I know that he will not change, I would have asked my parents to let him declare bankrupty. It might saved and changed him.

A lot of people who have such a family member at home, tell me the same thing, don't give them any more money, don't help coz it will never end. Let them declare bankrupty and learn thru the hard way...

If i were in ur position now, i will probably let ur dad do watever he wants after u have share all the possible consequences with him, including where to stay, blah blah blah...
 
to side track a bit .just a thought most probably the day u marry her off most probably u would be thinking to her husband "she is your problem now" haha
u must be really thanking whoever who marrys her then

oka now to solve the main issue on hand, as u r set to helping your little sis out hmm guess selling off the car though its a loss is a must so that she doesnt incur future or more debt in future at least can save on petrol, parking, insurance and so forth which can be used to pay debt
 
thots,

see beyond the 90k. With property, prices normally appreciate over time. Unlike the car. The main concern should be to clear the debts with the largest interests.

I was in a similar situation before and it truly sucks to have only a few hundred left in the bank account every month after bearing loans and debts of your family. My take home was only 3k then too.

The difference was I did not throw the money into a pit, I took over my dad's share of the apartment. He was made bankrupt for total debt of 370k. That worked for us because we prevented the bank from reprocessing the apartment and we were able to sell it at better price 2 yrs later.

Its a foolish idea to sell away assets for liabilities. Endure with the liabilities and put your assets to better use.

You can rent out a room to bring in some cash to offset the liabilities. Do extra jobs etc and look for ways to increase your revenue. Also, for the next 2 yrs, rent out the car to cushion the cost.
 
guess the contract is that type that gave upfront discount for the car paying tying the owner to the particular insurance company and also to the car.

so when u sell car it can be deducted from there also the insurance agent will give u back the amount not utilised so maybe u can use these to cover here and there for car but mostimportantly she is not incurring any more expenses for car
cos with say a 600mthly installment for car abt another 600 dollars is actually used to maintain the car

so by selling off car can at least save up the 600dollars and not spent it
 
rent out car might pose future problems for u cos like wat if that person doesnt pay for useage of car and wat if he damages the car .. there will be a lot of unwanted things to settle then

might wanna consider refinancing your dad's house to take some money out of it. or like u buying over the house from your dad etc sort of a way to refinance
 
since you've already tried to help but to no avail..perhaps the only thing to do is to allow them to deal this on their own and you pass no more judgment else they blame you for the negativity, also not sure what contract is there to sign when buying a car except for a loan to be repaid, btw what car did she buy at $90k on a 2K salary....if your sis wants to get another flat, then let her do so and she'll realise she still needs to raise the cash portion, i guess she has to co buy it with her bf or your dad...best is with your dad at least he can be assured of a roof..
 
typically when buying a car, the packages are such that make it 'cheaper' to purchase the car with a minimum amount of loan, with a lockin period of 2-3yrs... (basically similar to property But the interest element is very different). U definitely can redeem the loan, but it comes with a penalty... the interest is already factored in regardless (although some banks will give u a slight rebate).

if u buy a 100k car, 10yrs loan at 2.5%... u'll have to start repaying 125k over 120months (the 25k interest comes from 2.5%x10yrs x 100k). IF u sell your car the next month, u prob get only 85k for the car IF u're lucky... so your outstanding loan will be 125k-85k = 40k!

the problem is NOT just this 40k... it's also - Who can buy your car when your car Does not belong to u? but to the bank... the bank holds the Ownership/Log card to your car... IF u can't pay the bank the 125k, u can't even sell your car at 85k. so u're basically STUCK. and every month u've still got your $1,041 loan instalment to service...

basically, buying a car is a Death/Debt trap. the best way to buy a car is still in full cash... (where sometimes u get penalised as well Becos dealers Want u to take loans so that they earn more). so actually in spore, the Best way to buy a car is to buy from an owner (owner who OWNS the car) Directly and pay him cash...

although alot of 'car-owners' in spore, only a small percentage actually own their cars... in actual fact. most 'owners' are just a Leasing their cars from the bank.
 
before u can fully transfer the ownership of the car to someone else it is required that the car is paid up in full to the bank. So u might need that amt u owe to bank to pay bank first then transfer ownership then get money back (if there is any) , u might wanna find out how much u owe to bank first then talk to the dealer (person buying your car) to see if they can give u a higher deposit for your car so that u can use that amount to pay bank first so that transfer can be done
 
or if u still think of allowing your sis to keep her car be prepared to fork out 1000dollars a month for car or rent it out but be prepared to face consequences if something terrible happens to the car or even the renter doesnt take proper care of car resale will be low too in future.. but really can u find a person willing to rent full time in the first place and take proper care of car guaranteeing that car will be in one piece at end of rent period.
 
just by mere driving a car out one time is costly and can easily be $10 for a trip with ERP everywhere, petrol, parking (which can cost $10 itself sometimes)
 
this money can be used to repay debt or for a meal already and $10 is already 0.5% of a 2K salary. So with 20 trips in a mth its 10% of the 2K salary
 
Hi Soon-to-be

The contract is what powder has mentioned, it is some kind of package to purchase the car.
I think she is quite dumb to sign it.

I am buying and paying all the necessities, bills, groceries, food etc etc.. She is not paying anything. She bought a jazz. She just got the car back. Her car was badly damaged because of an accident.

Pink, I don’t want her to keep the car. She tells me she wants to wait for her death.
I feel like I owe the debts. She shouts at me and doesn’t listen to what I say. I told her I think I will die first before she dies so stop telling me this.

I asked her to call the banks and till now still no updates. I have to keep going to her instead of the other way round.

I have stopped telling them about the house because they will put all the blame on me should anything happen

I am looking for a part time job. I have taken steps to cut my expeneses. I have given up one of my insurance policy. I think I should start looking for a shelter too.
 
thots, you should jus bo-chap the whole matter. I know it's not going to be easy for u. How about this: on the surface, you bo-chap, then u can do watever u wan to know without them knowing?

you got to force ur sis to take up this responsibility, she's 27 and not 7! if she doesn't know how to repent now, she probably won't....err...i guess from my own experiences, my bro and FIL, i'm saying these....

I know u may think she's ur baby sis..and as e elder sis, u wan to help me resolve this "Family" problem. But sometimes, solving this espoide may not necessary help her to grow up afterall....

I'm sorry if u think i'm this heartless. My heart still pains for my bro. He used to dote a lot on me when he first started working. That's y I was v willingly to fork out thousands to help him pay his debt. Sometimes I think: how cld he grow up to be like this? Why can't he learn from his lessons? But I told myself i can't finance his bad habits anymore. At least I buy stuff for him and his family and dote on his 2 kids....
 
Helping is ok.. but we must not over-do it. Over-doing it breeds dependency. It is more harmful in the long run.

Help her along the way.. but let her fall and pick up the pieces.

try not to get too much directly.. don't have to call the banks for her. Don't have to argue too much with her or your father. Let them do what they want to do - just advise them gently. And monetary-wise, just help within your means.. but don't over-extend yourself by borrowing heavily to finance her repayment..
 
Thots,

Dun over carry the responsibility that is not yours in the first place. If u keep help her , she will never learn. But worst still, to her, shey may think, is alright to incur debt in future cos she has a sister like u to settle for her.

She shd go to credit counsellors and see if they accept her case, if accepted, they will help to negotiate a lower interest , on her behalf, with the banks.....
 
i thought credit card should be $ 30000 per yr.
gross salary = 2000 havent deduct CPF.
how did the banks approve in the first place??
 
i had my 1st gold card with a 2.5k salary. As I had 5.5 mths bonus that year. Nothing suspicious about that. Somemore, some banks have reduced the min wage from 30k to 20k.
 
it depends how the allowances is credited. If it credited as part of the pay, CPF deductions and tax is applicable, then, it will be recognized. This is the case for all the overseas allowance my company pays me.
 
Hi Soon to be

I think I am like a mum to her. We are 3 years difference in age but I seem to be very old. I have been suppporting her until she graduated.
I told her since she has started working, she should support herself. I delayed my part-time studies because of her because I can't afford 2 of us studying at the same time. What she says really hurt me. She makes me feel I am foolish all this while.

Yes anna, I keep persuading her to go CCS. She doesn't want to go, what can I do? I keep quiet now.

She applied for so many credit cards. All of them were approved. Some even offer her the premium card.
 


thots,

she might be treating u like a fool and laughing abt it... while u go clearing all the mess... Believe it or not, there are pple like that around, and some happen to be our siblings or relatives...

i'm amazed she can get so many credit cards and spend like this... have u ever wondered What the money is spent on?

this may be abit far-fetched, but there Are ladies who go into debt for their bfrens... very willingly... and the guy just continues living this way, and when 1 is done, he moves to the next girl... leaving a trail of families to clear sh!t.

90k... where does the money go? was at least half of it used to buy valuables like watches or gold or something? If there are, then at least u can get rid of some of them... car is impossible liao. even handbags for that matter - can be sold to raise and reduce the financial load... can u at least furnish the info of what she bought? or are they all spent on things which no longer hold value?
 
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