Buying a condominium

little poppets,

if property prices go out of control in next 1-2yrs, u think it'll go UP or Down? REALISTICALLY - would pple selling 30yrs old HDBs be able to have the financial power to say No to your price, compared with saying yes. would these same pple be Upgraders or downgraders?

remember that HDBs are legislated and Not a free market like private properties. end of the day, the negotiations are more with the agents, than the sellers. the agents Make the market, not the sellers... HDB sellers will just follow the market, with exception of the greedy ones who just advertise and hope to get some ridiculous price like striking 4D.

also ask yourself, "is what i'm thinking - a common thinking? is this same thinking the very force behind the current market? has the mass Ever won against the individuals before?"... historically, money is made by the minority, and the majority lose money... remember this, it's very very basic.

i'm gonna go out on a limb here... Yes i think property prices Goes Up. but no, i dun think the current AMK prices are realistic, in fact it's ridiculous... there are thousands of Flats to choose from, u just need the network to find a Few reasonable/sincere owners. not those pple who simply wanna try their luck, with agents that encourage trying their luck.

this is my take - Bishan/AMK are on hyped value and they will lose to other estates in the next decade. they are places that are living on past reputation... nothing else. pls note this is a very personal view, i'm not a guru. the true value of estates will shift elsewhere...
 


"this is my take - Bishan/AMK are on hyped value and they will lose to other estates in the next decade. they are places that are living on past reputation... nothing else. pls note this is a very personal view, i'm not a guru. the true value of estates will shift elsewhere..."

Losing the prime? I do feel that younger estates like Sengkang will be rising in time to come and the focus will be shifted over there. There is a trend that shifts. Bishan/AMK currently is like daylight robbery. When I heard the COVs they asked for previously, my first reaction was... "Siao".
 
ya, well they have value, but not the current one which is hyped. i am not downplaying the estate, but the chances of pple leaving AMK old flats to head elsewhere is gonna be higher... the shift will happen over the next decade.

the lifestyle that pple want is not the same as 20yrs ago, mature estates have a convenience that new estates can have just within 2yrs of developing, the mrt lines are giving more accesibility to the new estates. the mature estate gives convenience and accessibility... now these 2 things are found elsewhere, so how long can it make pple pay?

sporeans are a slow bunch to react... they will go on hearsay and common perception for a decade Before someone suggest that Sengkang is as good... then the crowd will rush there.
 
I have a question, would like to hear some advice on this.

If you have a HDB (fully paid up), and some cash on hand, would you look for a second property for investment or capital appreciation purposes? Or where do you park your cash?
 
Yes i would, since i'm not savvy with stocks or financial instruments... and i love properties so i'll look for a 2nd property. i'm doing that now in fact... in the meantime cash stays in the bank... it's hard to catch every money-making instrument, somehow u'll miss some good ones and some u're glad u didn't do.

i'll go for both capital+investment, why pick just one, since u have a choice of not buying? u're the king til the money leaves your hands...
 
"SINGAPORE: The number of jobs lost in Singapore doubled to 12,400 in the second quarter of this year, according to the Manpower Ministry’s (MOM) preliminary estimates on Friday."
 
why do demand and supply for mass-market housing fluctuate this much? at some point in 2004-5, there were ~17,000 hdb flats rotting out there because nobody wanted them. sure, the economy was in a rut but people still get married and needed a place to stay no? you can't blame it on immigrants (or the lack thereof) since those were new flats.

so when the opposite happens, i am not surprised. in any event, don't think of hdb flats as investment. and if you do, never ever bet against location. i have heard for years how places like sengkang, pungol, yishun, sembawang, etc. are such wonderful places but people are just not buying it. even discounting the upfront premium, i suspect that flats in 'mature' estates have appreciated a lot more relative to flats in those areas. in fact, the term 'mature estates' is such a misnomer. i don't think bishan is a lot older than say yishun. and walking around the estates, i don't find one having more amenities than the other. people just like bishan a lot more and it has been that way for decades.
 
powder,

We are actually not very property savvy and dun know where to start, except D12 which we are quite familiar as we have been staying in this area.

Problem is we are unsure when is the good time to go in and which locations are good potential for rental yield and capital appreciation.

Of cos, we have been hearing location is the key but it also comes with a higher price.
 
little poppets,

for stay-in property - i truly believe in making my Own decision, and as far as listening to others, it shld be regarded as simply their own opinions - it's really easy to tread on the path of a follower, but it might be not the most effective choice for Myself.

seems like u have the purpose already, hence the way that u further questioned urself in here... is to clear the path to that purpose.
other than seeking for more advice and reviews on those shortlisted district ie. price, i think perhaps u shld consider ur Own stand (& ur hubby) in the light of making ur Own choice - in the short and long run.

when i was scouting for a flat, i kept hearing "jurong this jurong that", "buy new flats first then sell later", "possible condo en-blocs at hillview" etc....

so i dug deep and listen to my inner voice: "are those Good for me in the long run, or are those Good for me because they think so?"

the fact is... at that point, like others would have done - i was quite tempted to buy low (new flats), then sell after a certain period and upgrade to somewhere else.... equally, i was abit tempted to invest in some old condos at hillview and wait for a possible en-bloc...

the turning point of a question is: will i feel truly Happy or simply Demoralised on a daily basis if i decide to make my first house in an 'sardine-packed' environment or in an 'not-very-condo-ish' apartment?

these were My Criterion, maybe not Yours... so u (& hubby) gotta honestly seek that out and if u are convinced that the eventual choice is Worthwhile to your well-being, then u shld proceed without regrets despite the difference in views from others.
 
meagain,

i will invest in both properties and stocks...
in fact, more on properties as it is tangible.. more shiok feeling for me.. hehe.

i guess if u are still unsure about the rental market and stuffs, don't step in first. personally, shld go explore abit more on the vital reasons for key locations when it comes to investment purposes. the high prices have its merits as well - shld look at the long-term as a whole.

and rem, 'timing' can be based on your own pace as well.
 
hi meagain,

not many can claim to be property savvy lah, even Kiyosaki might not be as successful if he was born in s'pore.

being familiar with D12 is 1 thing, but until u go out and look, compare, dig, u won't be able to know if it is really worth its salt.

"Problem is we are unsure when is the good time to go in and which locations are good potential for rental yield and capital appreciation."
- this is Everyone's problem now. i would think that both are difficult now becos property prices have made them difficult to achieve so there will be NO angle for most... of cos, becos pple die die wanna look at something, the current market is actually made up of them. u can only talk abt yield and investment if u're looking at the truly luxury class or sentosa, but that's beyond the reach of most. so seriously Just window shop til u see a bargain, not a place u "like".

the average man often setoff looking for capital-appreciation & rental. he ends up getting emotionally-involved and buying what he likes & fancies instead. most times some new property that has NO rental cos it isn't even built yet. he simply buys a concept and plan.

to me location is very impt. of cos it comes at higher prices, but if u look at wat's happening Now... AMK/Redhill are getting MORE expensive than F9/D10. logical? no right? then why pple jump to those places? somemore 99yrs versus FH.
 
We just came back after a whole day of hse hunting in AMK and TPY. Comparing btw the 2 estates, e flats we viewed in AMK age range from 13 years to 32 years, asking price from 450k to 486k. The only TPY flat we viewed is 11 years old and asking 500k+.

The thing is we have to have our jobs in order to make sure we dun default on our repayments, if we get flat from these areas, and assuming we "down" a proportion of our sale proceeds.

Coming to think about it, after looking and comparing the hses, it might be more worthwhile if we stay back in the north and keep the cash for investment purposes rather than dump it on a HDB flat.

Of course I would like to live near my parents too. I like to be able to drop in on them sometimes. But I guess sometimes u just have to make adjustments bah. Well...who knows probably I can better use the money and maybe I'll still move near them in future. :p

For me, I just dun feel comfortable paying half a million for a HDB flat lah....
 
if the value of the flats at where u're residing is strong enuf to allow u to shift closer to bishan, then do it... cos chanses are that when AMK/TP is cheap enough, then where u stay may be even cheaper... this is just a general advice. cos i dun know sembawang tat well...
 
may i ask, any take on studio apartments .. i see that the prices for studios are generally 15 - 20% higher than but it may the only thing i can afford because of its size .. but i'm kinda worried of reselling it later (i dunno where i can research on the demand) should i choose to move to HDB .. or should i really give up the idea and just rent .. ? i'm @ a loss.
 
Between AMK and TPY, in terms of distance both are close to Bishan but I suspect AMK is more convenient because there is more than a road connecting AMK to Bishan - whereas for TPY it is separated by the busy braddel road and access not as convenient.

Between TPY and AMK, I would choose AMK - cheaper and probably more wider space outside. Bad thing about AMK is that CTE is perpetually Jam. TPY gets you to PIE quickly. Both have amenities and also good food - something you can't say for newer estate or even Bishan.
 
Studio is always a niche and limited market. And you have to pay a premium compared to say 2 bedroom/3 bedroom units on a psf basis. If you can afford, get a 2 bedroom apartment - more saleable and rentable.

If you are thinking of being single all the way, then a consideration. Your market to sell will be limited to single-people who wants small private instead of HDB.
 
Hi SM....u r rite....TPY is most inconvenient compared to AMK. I checked the buses going to my parents' place and AMK wins with 5 buses whereas TPY, there's only 1 and I would have to walk a bit.

Our agent called us this afternoon saying the seller is willing to lower their valuation by 2k.....

In terms of location, TPY is really good cuz its like only 3 stops away from Orchard Road.

I tot bout it these 2 days and I think I couldn't commit as I would be paying that amount for the next 30 years....do I really wanna be slave to loan repayments for this period? Gosh... we would be in our 60s by the time we repaid our flat!
 
living stayed in both tpy and amk, i much much prefer tpy. tpy was built during a time when land was not considered such a scarce commodity. the density of land use in tpy is much lower, e.g., the flats are further apart so you don't have to look into your neighbor's bathroom. and of course it is also so much nearer to town. you may think that 3 mrt stops is not a big deal but to me, that's the difference between tpy and orchard. or btw amk and yishun.
 
little poppets,

What is 3 stops to Orchard Road.. how often do you go to orchard these days?

I avoid orchard road unless I need to go..
 
Of course TPY is a good location, being relative near to town.. but you got to ask yourself how important is this "relative nearness" to town to you.
 
Hi simpleman....yup, actually I'm quite ok if not near to town cuz I dun really go down to town tat frequent... (probably cuz I've been staying in Sembawang all this while). Just tat when I do go town, it takes more than 1 hour by MRT b4 I get back home.

Hi tomasulu, yup old flats are further apart... And the kitchen is bigger too! Some of the newer flats we saw in Woodlands we can practically talk to the next blk occupants w/o raising our voice lor.

I tink we could get the TPY flat, but its a little risky cuz both of us have to continue to work for the next 30 years. And our CPF savings would be totally wiped out.

My hubby's take it that we could stay back in the north first and move again 3 years later to be nearer to my parents. Like this, we are nearer to the value of the AMK/ Bishan/ TPY flats. Does this make sense huh? As in for eg, we buy Woodlands flat for 350k. 3 years later sell for 400+k (which I dun think Woodlands flats can fetch any price higher) and then move to AMK/ Bishan/ TPY for about 500++k.

I dun really see the benefit lah cuz if Woodlands flat prices can go up, so will the flats in these areas lor.
 
TPY/AMK flats are very likely gonna log on and wipe out your cpf if you remain as a family earning combine income of 10k and below without other sources of passive income. The newer flats at those area are sardine packed and the living space cramped. The newer blocks opposite Tpy MRT has 75sqm for their 4 rooms and 90sqm for their 5 rooms unit. How small is that.
 
Actually if you want to move nearer you should move when the prices are lower.. when prices in woodlands is up.. prices in AMK/TPY would have gone up more..

But why is there a need to be so near parent? Because of children?
 
If you are staying in Woodlands, AMK should be a big improvement in terms of distance to Bishan.

Or you can look at Serangoon/Hougang - not too far from bishan.
 
if you care about property value, you don't just think about your needs. you also care what most people care about. e.g., we don't have a maid but we set aside space for a maid's room when we were building our house.

i understand your concern with a 30 year loan. but all the more, you want to invest in good location so you minimize the chance of getting into negative equity. i have no hard data to support my theory but i believe the good-locations hold their value better than the bad-locations. it is ok to invest in a property so long as, when needed, you can sell it at more than what you put in.
 
I think Woodlands to Bishan will cost a good half an hour or more hence TS wanan somewhere really close ba. Actually to Bishan not only AMK. Try Yio Chu Kang? Also quite close mah. Arbo Buangkok that area?
 
A lot of considerations lor....

We dun have kids yet but planning so location is 1 thing cuz if near parents can get my mum to look after. My in-laws are in Tiong Bahru so largi far.

If Woodlands, next time they move I got problem, if go up and down everyday petrol siao liao.

Hi HBH. Ya, we are always stuck for bout 15 mins when exiting from Yishun. The traffic there is crazy....

Tat's our concern about the location cuz good location means we have a resale value in future. Looking at Woodlands flats, honestly speaking I can't see how much the flat will go up (or down even!) 3 to 5 years later. So the amt if we are paying for the Woodlands flat is say 380k... honestly speaking, I can't see it going for more than 450k in the next 3 to 5 years lor.

HDB flats are not for speculation. But that's wat everyone is doing in AMK/ Bishan/ TPY. I even see 1 seller asking for 100k above valuation!

Now, I'm like
good location--> pricier but property price secured, near parents, near town, near in-laws (I mean if I compare going to TBR from Sembawang and from TPY lah)
ulu location--> cheaper but property price no guarantee, not near parents, far from town, far from in-laws....

I didn't know hse-hunting can be so crazy leh....
 
little_poppets,

Then you should widen your area of search..

As I mentioned, Serangoon/Hougang

AMK I think if you are patient enough you may be able to find something that you can afford.

If you don't mind you can consider a little further like buangkok or even sengkang.

I can do the timing for you - to drive from sengkang to Bishan. I know I can reach TPY from sengkang in 15 mins. Bishan probably slightly longer.

And you know, sengkang to Tiong Bahru is also about 20 mins?
 
If your PILs will be involved with the child, and If u're gonna look at amk/tpy prices... then it might be worth your while to look at tiong bahru area instead... it will pretty much fulfil your criteria for the HDB's value.

would think it's better to stick to amk/tpy n my personal recommendation of shunfu. else look near PILs area... Timing-wise, since u have 2yrs on your hand, then suggest u just 'throw numbers'... meaning u bid low for the flats and hope for the best... u might like try on the lower floors for this.

traffic has been my no.1 criteria After location in all my searches.
 
SM, how fast you drive? Haha

Driving during morning and evening peaks will set you back easily by 10-20 minutes due to heavy traffic.
 
The TPY flat is on the 4th flr....

I'm oso looking at Shunfu, cuz I found a lot of buses going to my parents place...

Personally I haven't tot bout Sengkang there leh cuz I'm not familiar. I go reckie first. The timing you mentioned is like "wu yang bor"?! Hehe....
 
doll,

I can drive very fast.. but the estimated time i stated are for normal driving speed.

You refering to which timing that you think I am driving too fast?
 
little_poppets,

It is amazing.. Bishan is relatively nearer to Sengkang than say tiong Bahru but driving time is almost similar..

This is because to get to Tiong Bahru from sengkang is all the way KPE/ECP then exit lower delta.

To get to Bishan from Sengkang - although is nearer - the route not so direct.. and depending on which route.. traffic lights.. and even on highway - the interconnecting part, esp CTE is always jam.

So I am but bluffing you. the best thing in Sengkang is KPE. But the food there sucks lah.
 
Wu yia, if the traffic is clear and with his speedy driving haha ;) My dad ever drove me from Novena to Yishun in under 15 mins. I was holding to my seat haha.

For Sengkang, can get membership at Koufu :P

How about kovan that area? Considered before? Connecting to AMK ave 1 via boundary road and abit more is Bishan liao.
 
HBH, potong pasir is Expensive now... it's been a hidden gem for awhile til recently...

poppets, shunfu only hor... dun end up looking at sin ming... near, but world's apart.
 
doll,

surprisingly, the 10-20 mins of additional time does not apply to KPE, yet.. ha ha..

Ya, but when it connects to PIE/CTE/ECP.. that is where the delay is..
 
SM, I use the ECP and KPE home-office-home. Home is in Tiong Bahru and the office, Ubi. I usually drive 10km/h above speed limit. It's usually a breeze to use the expressway (15 minutes from Lower Delta to Airport Rd) but once exit the expressway massive traffic would be waiting.....

In the evening, say 6.30pm, when I exit from ECP at Lower Delta, I can get stuck at the first traffic light for 10 minutes.
 
That day I din drive I wanted to go to Orchard road (Mount E).

Taxi driver suggested, TPE/CTE. I said No. I said KPE/PIE/CTE.

After the journey the taxi driver was very surprised - he reckoned I saved at least a few dollars and saved at least 10 mins.. cos CTE before PIE definitely jam for a while.
 
doll,

that is because the traffic at UBI is bad. But imagine if you don't have KPE, how much longer will you take to reach office?
 
For KPE, the max safe speed is 80km/hr.. at times on certain stretch you can go faster but you have to be alert.. not worth..
 
SM, I will die without KPE! The traffic in Ubi is really horrible, takes me 15-20 minutes from Airport Rd (where I exit the KPE) to Ubi Rd 1 for a distance no more than 5km.

I always keep my speed at 80km/h on KPE. On ECP, I am at 80km/h or 90km/h depending on which part of the expressway. OK, sometimes I go at 100km/h.
 
Yep. CTE towards AYE entrance to PIE after bradell that stretch always jam up. Whole day affair. Similar as CTE to SLE PIE entrace. Most of the jams caught up there like constipation but after that, it would be smooth. If top up with accident, you almost don't need to step on accelerator liao.

Another update. Amk ave 8 towards bishan up to braddel. Try to avoid during peak hours. You will be faster on the expressway still.

Well actually you can also factor in the other Circle line stations coming up linking to Bishan in 2010. So there's quite a few other possible locations that you can explore too.
 
doll, i would just reject jobs in that area... too painful on a daily affair. tat said, i go via ecp/marine parade/still road... tried kpe once and can't say i'm impressed.
 


doll,

I think there should be a faster way.. cos i think you overshoot the exit already.

did you try to try kpe/pie exit paya lebar?
 
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