What makes a man faithful???

lychee

New Member
I have been reading about posts where men are unfaithful, or cheating on spouse.. well I had been with such a man that cheats. Oh.. he is a great guy, smart, generous, spoilt you to a point, but not overly, we enjoy the same things, and can even sometimes finishes each other sentences. Declaration of love etc etc.. But still, he cheats, and not only once. Anyway, it's over and although i still held him in affection, there's nothing more..

Anyway, i'm wondering why there are just some men who chose not to cheat.. Oh, I'm aware of all the pretty gals out there, and working in the CBD area, there's plently of nice pretty girls that are temptation to man. But i'm sure that there are many happily married/attached man, that can cheat but chose not to, it's not really lack of opportunity or chances. So instead of asking why man cheats?

What makes a man not cheat? Well, S3x is s3x, and i understand from my male friends, to most guys, they are just that, and to do it with other ppl dun mean that they dun love their gf/wife. This i can't understand. Yet I am sure in this cynical world out there, there are man who chose not to do it. not because they are a good man, but for some reasons. Can anyone enlighten me..??
 


powderful07

New Member
It's very difficult to educate someone who can't even say Sex as it is...SEX...

And NOT S3x...

That reluctance to say SEX as SEX pretty much reflects your mentality...

Your actions is already telling us that you view SEX as a "dirty" word...
Are you sure you're ready for such information?
 

skylar

New Member
Powderful..

maybe she is trying to hint that to her S3x is a 3some leh.. dun pray pray ah...

u get the drift?
 

miloice

Well-Known Member
its like asking what equation gives the answer 2.
1+1=2, but 3-1=2 too. There are infinite equations. So, the answer to your question is too vast to quantify.

Rather, identify that key contributing factors to your equation. But, its never a guarantee. You cannot even guarantee u wouldn't cheat yourself one day.

Many people in affairs could be strong moral and faith people. No one is immune to it.
 

lychee

New Member
oh.. so you think you can educate..?? pls, you might be truly offensive, or i'm just taking the defensive stance. truly, it's not hard to say sex.. i am just not sure if it gets filter out, hence the "mis spelling"..

now i understand why some ppl lumped certain ppl together.. i'm here because i dun understand.. and truly seek enlightenment.. DUN assume that i'm not saying sex because i think it's a dirty word, and dun bloody think you know me.

I asked because I clueless, and if you have nothing better to do but make fun, pls, bloody f*ck off. And it pisses me off when you think you know me or my mentality when I did nothing to even warrant it but asked something i dun know. and having someone to bloody treat it as a joke.
 

simpleman

Active Member
ha ha powderful.. u kiam gan is it..

kena f*ck off.

as to ts, can't really answer. men are programmed to cheat.. they are programmed to sow their seeds.. so the few that don't cheat are not the norm.. well not really.

In reality, MAN do have tendency to cheat sexually at least.. but then we also have a big head up there.. and if we appreciate enough the people around us.. that is what keeps us firmly on the ground and not cheat.. this is when the big head overrule the small head.
 

vios

New Member
lychee ah, cool off with a lychee-ed drink lah..

for me, it's my own moral values. Simply don't harbour the thought of betraying my wife by having sex with other women. Yup, beautiful women are everywhere, and no one can guarantees one's fidelity.

Normally, i'll just get away from those situations that is likely to jeopardise my stand in this issue....

such as the offers of cute biscuits and peeled prawns.
 

lychee

New Member
well.. i'm cool.. as long as my toes dun kena stepped on.. so it shall be a truce.. i hate it when i can't hold my anger.. well, i always told my friends, i'm always the ones in heels, but why is it that my toes are the ones that are stepped on instead.. anyway i disgress..

i'm think i might read it from somewhere that there is a DNA that programs man to cheat.. or was it being gay..?? either way, no one's fault for having such DNA..

well, this question arise because everyone was asking why men cheats.. there's all sort of reasons that men cheats, obvious and not so obvious reasons, but yet, we dun appreciate the ones that chose not to cheat.. and the reason that they chose not to.. And i firmly believe that no one can guarantee one for not cheating, but there are reasons for holding on to promises and vow.. but i guess i'm truly just asking a why that i dun understand, and no one can explain..

oh.. and dun offer too much peeled prawns.. it's better to just treat the gal prawn that is already peeled when it's cooked...
 

vios

New Member
no... no.... im struggling with the cute biscuits and peeled prawns for some time liao, but they can't seem to get out of my mind.

Am i having the thoughts for infidelity?
 

lychee

New Member
no.. i will think that you are having thoughts of kids... well my dad peel prawns and buy me cute biscuit.. and here i am treating my thread as a joke.. bleh...
 

vios

New Member
Kiddos? Hope not... still mentally unprepared for little rascals. Haha.. i hope the biscuits and prawns thingy will vanish cos' it's pretty insane thoughts to have.

You asking why men are faithful, right? I said liao mah... for me, it's my personal/moral values, apart from the love loh. But definitely not the wedding vows, as you've mentioned...
 

powderful07

New Member
What the fish? Yes...not fcuk...that's becos I'm curious...Not angry...Not yet anyway...

Just to clarify and make things clear...
Do take note that my post now is not posted in anger...more in AMAZEMENT...

Lychee, What did I seriously do WRONG here?
Did my reputation precedes me? Are you judging me based on my previous interactions with morons? And that your first reaction is that I'm treating you as one right from the beginning? Have some respect for yourself...if not for me...

And since when did I MAKE FUN OF YOU?
I have re-checked my post already and I did not find it offensive by my standards...why did you just blow up for no apparent reason?

Regardless of whether the system filters it or not, it's up to the system...Have you even tried typing the word "sex" to just check if the system allows? Or did you just jump automatically to the conclusion that the system "disallows" it...like what you did when you automatically assumes that I'm here to be an arse to you and trying to be mean?...
Extend that same courtesy to me as well...that I'm not here to MAKE FUN of you or to be offensive...Moral of the story here? Don't JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS BASED ON WHAT YOU THINK AND WHAT YOU SEE FROM MY PAST ACTIONS...

It may be surprising to you; but I do research on people who I'm addressing to as a sign of respect...I did a study on your previous few posts and you seems like the "innocent" kinda gal (not anymore after THAT outburst)...
I didn't treat it as a joke and I'm just basing my comments BASED ON WHAT I OBSERVED?! That you seems to be a bit young and innocent about the ways of life...On that part, I'm wrong...you were right when you said I shouldn't assume that you are young and innocent...especially not after you overthrow my theory with that tirade that you launched in my face...Stupid of me...

Please give me the benefit of the doubt that I don't behave like an arse (except to people who are morons...) ALL THE TIME?

Seriously...What's wrong with that post? If it was posted by SOMEONE OTHER THAN ME...Would it have generate that same response from you? Ask yourself that question? If yes, then I apologise if I might have been in any way undermining you...but if no, then you need to re-evaluate on how you view things in life and not let emotions overtake you on the decisions you make...

So don't go all defensive and said that I have stepped on your toes when I have not...

If I'm behaving like a fcuking asshole, I'll raise up my hand and admit it...

But when I'm not behaving like one and people assumes that of me...I might jolly start turning into one...

So thanks for THAT...
I have enough self respect to stay out of this thread if you chose to think this way of me...
And to reiterate again...I'm not angry...
Just sad at the way people judge me...
 

miloice

Well-Known Member
haha... lychee. GOOD ONE!
happy.gif


powderful kenna slam. keekeekee.

But frankly, focusing back on your question, its really no single equation for all. What one can do it make calculated risk and learn to accept the risk.

Just as we know a European car with 5 star on safety can probably lower the chances of fatal accidents but it doesn't guarantee no accident.

It would be common sense to avoid the intentional cheaters.. i.e. those that go out to fling and have fun regardless.

Personally, I believe the personality plays a significant part. But don't ask me to prove it with some stats. I'm sure for every kind of guy in the world that we can identify, there are bound to black sheeps too.
 

powderful07

New Member
Kenna slam??

It's more like being caught in a hailstorm in the middle of a dessert...

You don't know what hit you and why...
 

lychee

New Member
firstly, i read post but not poster, so i won't and don't know who you have been an arse to or not. So i can truly and clearly say that YES!!, it's it's anyone other than you. I will still react this way, and if by any standards you think that i'm giving you hell because it's you, I apologize. You dun see anything wrong with that post because you are not me.. hence we have a different perspective on what's offensive and what's not.. and judging my mentality by not using the sex word, is just so, be it i took the time to "test" out the system or not. and now i know sex is a word that can be posted.

But whatever issue or assumption that you or I have made of each other.. i shall not bring that up again, or even defend it, because firstly, there's no point to it and it's only going to be stupid trying to because its only going to make an ass out of you and me..

And well, i will admit that my previous post makes me out of some innocent young girl (which i'm not, as much as the darn baby face i have) but I have not experience enough experience yet.. but, i believe that love or many things that revolves around human relationship be it friends and family are questions that everyone asked throughout life and yet never really have a right or wrong answer.. hence my why's although i know that there's no true answer to the question.. yet it might give me some insight to it..

anyway.. if you are still reading this darn post.. let's call it a truce.. and i dun judge you.. and frankly, i'm a woman.. so being emotional is almost like second skin most of the time..
 

lychee

New Member
okay lar.. powderful, i apologize liao.. i can offer you cute biscuits if you want to.. i have the pretty white cat (hello kitty) one.. limited edition somemore okay..

i know this question is kinda of like a question with no answer.. but i'm asking because, it's sad to see why everyone is breaking up because of a third party or cheating issue..

and i guess i was brought up with a warp thinking that a serial cheater can be a great husband, if you are the one.. ya ya.. that very innocent mind of mine, hey blame it on the romance books.. but grew up, thinking change... but sometimes it's just nice to see two old people, walking in the park with their hand still lock together.. yes although we can never say that neither has cheated.. that's why i know the question has no true answer..
 

miloice

Well-Known Member
hi lychee,
frankly, u didn't see everyone breaking up. Just that u r in a forum called "matters of the heart", so what do u realistically expect??

Do u expect to see many people coming in here to write new threads saying "hi everyone, I'm in a very happy marriage". Next thing, that poster will be blasted for trying to rub salt on the broken hearts.

Its really a no brainer loh.

On the serial cheater thing... I think anyone can be a great husband for someone. It is a matter of finding the right mate and him believing and putting in the right commitment to it. But, be careful... alot of people have this fantasy of trying to be the 'last' woman for the man. Its really a fantasy to hope to change someone. Changes cannot be forced upon. Its a high risk choice of men to begin with. Its possible but we don't cling to some distant hope out of nothing.
 

powderful07

New Member
Lychee

First...just becos you said "it's going to be stupid trying to" doesn't make it stupid for me and don't ever use that as a means to stop someone from trying to defend himself...I stand by what I believe it; be it right or wrong...If ever one day I believe that it's "stupid" to defend myself, it will be the day I lose my identity and I'll just be one of those souless people who goes with the flow and is agreeable to everything in life just becos they couldn't be bothered...So please reserve that comment to yourself...It doesn't apply to me...

Second...I do find it futile as well to carry on corresponding with a woman who uses "being emotional" as an explanation...Logic and emotions don't mixed...If you're looking for answers to things in life/human relationship...then you do need to be able to understand logic and be rational at times...and to do that, you need to stop being emotional for that moment...

"Being emotional is almost like second skin most of the time"??? Is that how you walk through your life? Being emotional in everything you do?

Anyway...good luck, I hope you find the answers you're looking for...
 

powderful07

New Member
Lychee,

This is with regards to your post on 4.19pm.
No need to apologise.

You have your views; I have mine...
The world don't stop just becos you have to agree with me and vice versa...
 

lychee

New Member
true.. matter of the hearts usually involves heartache, and troubles.. but what i meant really is people around me, friends that are stuck in marriage yet refusing to get out because of stigma etc etc..

first really came into this forum many months ago, old history, never really posted because during then, i would really only wanted sympathy and frankly, you guys here are nice enough to not be nice if needed, so if i had really wallow in my sorrow, i think i would probably be labelled as a moron then.. but since then, i believe that i have walked out, or so i hope to think..

as for marriage, i do believe that in every unsuccessful one, there is also a successful one, but it takes effort in both. but nay, that believing in making a change in a man was a little girl's thinking.. now i agree that one will change unless he or she wants to, and it is a choice that one has make. and by forcing a change, it only breeds resentment and distrust.. I firmly believe in choices in life, whether it's the right choice or not, it's still a choice..
 

lychee

New Member
Powderful
firstly, i dun usually let emotion rule my life, if i had, i would be at a corner crying because oh mightly powderfull is bullying me.. secondly, i meant it as a joke as being female is my second skin. And i think that it is stupid to try to defend a dead case since your misconception of me is no really the issue to this post and it's like flocking a dead horse with audience, and by not defending, dun mean that i agree or not agree with you, and if you think that by not defending you lose your identity, well, that's you. and you are still taking your assumption on me (according to what i read from your post, i could be assuming of course, but well).. so let's not judge each other..
 

miloice

Well-Known Member
hi lychee,

i think morons are not really used on those that dwell in their misery but on those that labels anyone that points that out to them (be it bluntly, kindly or gently) as being unwilling and insensitive gang of regulars.
 

powderful07

New Member
Oh ...Being female (emotional)...so it's a joke now eh? At my expense, I suppose...

"Dun usually let emotions rule your life"? So that first post from you to me was just a rare exception, I suppose as well...

My bad... Guess I'm wrong to assume that you're (1) a woman and (2) being emotional just because you said so in your earlier post...and then say it's a joke later...It's all my assumption...Guess I must have Matt Parkman's abilities...

So if we can't judge you or give you advice based on what you have said (cos that'll be assumption rite?)...then what are we suppose to judge you with and what qualities do we use to advice you accordingly, if we don't use what you said as an assumption...Do you see what I'm getting at here?

Maybe I'm getting senile and confused here...but how are the rest of people going to proceed from here? Develop mind reading abilities?
I mean, you seems to have this wonderful sense of humour that seems to suit your every whims and needs to express the meaning of your posts as and when it suits you...
Maybe it's just me not understanding your joke perhaps...

*tofu time*
 

lychee

New Member
I wonder who is the one getting emotional here..

and your advice or answer to the question of this thread being..???
 

powderful07

New Member
You said you have heartS mah...

Normal people only have one heart...
Monsters have heart"s"...

I'm sorry, was I wrong to assume you have more than one heart just because you said "hearts"? I apologise for assuming that you're a monster cos you have "hearts" as well; that was bad judgement on my end...I shouldn't have assume so quickly...Please move your head nearer so that I can read your thoughts...

Just tell me that you're joking in your next post and it'll be all right...
 

skylar

New Member
Powderful..

pls lor.. based on the grounds of our similiarity, I reckon I frankly do not have to guess or think if you r assuming anot?? Simply cos, I really deem it a tedious chore to have to tell you that I am joking or not in any of my post??

as in the "jie ti fai hui" ah... u seriously dun hv to use me as a mirror to reflect what u want to voice out leh u know?

P/S : Pls let me know that you are using me in ur next post & I will be fine....
 

powderful07

New Member
My advice to you are:

---Don't be emotional...
And then don't be patronising...and said you're joking when I tried to tell you you shouldn't be emotional most of the time when dealing with serious issues...So when do we know what you're saying are serious or a joke? Are you taking us for a ride?

---Be clear about what you're trying to convey...
It's a pity you don't ply your trade at Jalan Kayu based on your flip-flopping skills...You said one thing this moment; and then the next, you said another...Eg. Being emotional in one post...and then "dun usually let emotion rule my life" in the next post...So are you emotional or not emotional? Are we suppose to judge you based on what you post or are we NOT suppose to? Does doing so makes me ASSUME something about you? Or does it not?

---Stop being so defensive...
People JUDGE you based on your comments. It's NATURAL. If we don't do that; how can people advice you? Just becos it's not soothing to your ears DOESN'T make it an negative assumption. Are you like that dad in the Class 95 ad? Only hear the good things? And if you don't want people to judge you negatively; then don't say things or do things that will puts us under that impression...
 

powderful07

New Member
skylar...

I'm using you...I'm sorry...and I mean it...It's not a joke and it's not an assumption...

I'm really really sorry...for you and your heartS...



PS: Can I assume that you're still a monster based on the fact that you still have not denied it? Or is that a bad assumption?

PPS : Again...I'm sorry for my statement in the PS above for using you...This time it's real...Sorry...
 

lychee

New Member
well, fyi,
in your earlier post at 3.22pm "If it was posted by SOMEONE OTHER THAN ME...Would it have generate that same response from you? Ask yourself that question? If yes, then I apologise if I might have been in any way undermining you...but if no, then you need to re-evaluate on how you view things in life and not let emotions overtake you on the decisions you make... "

I had answer you yes, any one other than you will be "lashed" by me, so that telling you that i'm not using emotion, hence my later ending that me being emotional is sort of a "joke" to say that i'm still female.. but if you dun get it, well, then leave it as that. No issue.

And i'm pissed, not because of unpleasant advice.. but more of that it did offend me when you first assumed.

and it's ccontradicts what you preached.. about how ppl judge you wrongly. if you dun want others to judge you, then pls dun judge others be it negatively or positively, I can truly say that i dun judge you being what kind of person because i dun know you, and i appreciate if you dun judge me and make fun of me at my expenses.
 

powderful07

New Member
Err...
Now I'm utterly mixed up...

By LASHING OUT AT ME means that you're NOT USING EMOTIONS? Err...again, I'm confused...You normally lash out at people with NO EMOTIONS? Wow...that's really cool...wish I could do that...So, were you emotional or were you not emotional when you lashed out at me?

Again...how was I suppose to know that you were joking in that post? Become Matt Parkman? Does that makes it right for me to ASSUME you're emotional? Or does it not? Again...I'm confused...you seriously need to let us know when you're joking AND when you're not...It's very diffcult to tell so; you know...being over the Internet and stuff...and you're not exactly JK Rowling...

You're right on one point though...I dun get it...and I'll leave it as it is...I'm afraid my brain is going to get fried if I try to understand more of what you're trying to say...

I'm an arse BUT I'm also nice to certain people (on some occasions)...I react according to different situations and you can judge me based on my reactions in these situations...Be it past, present or even future...You blend what you have learnt about me and use that to judge me THERE AND THEN...If I'm an arse now, say I'm an arse...If I'm not; then don't tell me I AM...I'm upset at the WAY you judge me...and NOT ON THE ACTION THAT YOU JUDGE ME...there's a KEY difference...Go take a second look again...

I judge you based on what you post now and in the past...Again, what's wrong with that? Do I still stand by my earlier opinion that you're young and innocent now?
Not by a freaking long mile now...your recent actions have changed my judgement of you...Do you get what I'm saying now on making assumptions and deriving judgements from them?

People who keeps on harping on not judging people ought to grow up...In the real world out there, people judge you on your words and actions whether you LIKE IT OR NOT...

So does being present here in this forum allows you to be who you want to be just becos you're NOT ALLOWED TO BE JUDGED by others?
Are we so warped by the silly notion that People don't judge People in the real world?
 

powder

Active Member
it's a tough question... and unlikely to have any umbrella guides... but something u might wanna look at is - Prioritising.. how a guy prioritizes things...
 

powderful07

New Member
To answer this thread...

What makes a man faithful?
I have no answers to that...for now...

Before I got blasted again...
Let me asked you something back then...

What will makes a woman UNemotional?
Someone said being a woman "entitles" her to being emotional..."like a second skin" (shouldn't it be second nature?) rite?

You give me the answer to my above question and I'll try to answer the first question...

I'm not being an arse...nor am I picking a fight...Answer it nicely if you can...
 

saggitarian

New Member
What makes a man unfaithful and why does a man cheats?

this question comes in 2 parts.Mental and body. true like what have been mentioned.

Males have sperms which are designed to fertilise as many eggs as possible so as to continue the human race. this fact will never change regardless how technology advances.

for the mental part.

there are quite a number of answer to this part. i will just summarise out.

some percentage is due to the reason i meantion just now.

some is to be self satisfied that he can juggle well and cover it all up. so he will be smitten at the end of the day.

some cheat may be that they found someone has some qualities that their partner lack of and they yearn for it.

basically REAL couples will nag at each other for the sake of each others. scandals are just about money sex and enjoyment. so which one is more pleasing??


on your question on why female prefer males who cheats rather than respect the ones who dun.

the simple answer is that females are wars on their on . due to their vanity, if they can get a playboy to spend attention on them . they will feel they have win other competitors rather than staying with a guy with no competitor.
 

saggitarian

New Member
So.. what makes a man DUN cheat?

simple. memories. experience and hardships.

all scandals have one thing in common. it will end when the happiness ends.

will u cheat if u find someone who is compatible with you, who can tolerate your short temper, who is willing to care for you when you have no blood relations at all and last willing to sacrifice for you ?

when 2 people expereince hardships together or fight to acheive something together. thats the memories that will flash out when ones tries to cheat.

lol .. 5 am .. duno u understand what i typing or not.

let me just give u one last example.

if u r a guy with a girlfriend who is wearing jeans in the mrt, in comes another ger who wears a miniskirt and you shift your attention to her.
BUT WILL YOU STILL THINK OR REMEMBER THE GIRL FACE WHEN YOU REACH HOME AT NIGHT ?

it is only that short period of lust that males cant withstand for him to commit an error. but wise man will know that this ten mins is better off not to even think for the sake of marriage or relationship which is years. So which one reaps more profit
 

miloice

Well-Known Member
qwerty,

its a overly simplistic view.

affairs don't happen with only 1 way.
The example hardly reflects anything actually.

As a guy, regardless what gf is wearing, it will natural to be attracted to steal a peak at attractive women. SO, WHAT'S the point here?!? Excluding the intentional serial cheaters, that kind of attraction is hardly the reason why one would cheat.

Here's some very real example:-

1) Person lonely away on biz trip. Temptation sits in.
2) Worked very closely with colleague and with time started developing strong friendships in office. Subconsciously developing mutual feelings with someone in office.

even after finding someone who is "compatible with you, who can tolerate your short temper, who is willing to care for you when you have no blood relations at all and last willing to sacrifice for you" and experenced "hardships together or fight to achieve something together." affairs still do happen.

Nevertheless, I do agree that simple. memories. experience and hardships do help REMIND one against cheating.
 

advisor00

New Member
Dear Unknown

You don't have the qualities to attract men who DON'T cheat!

That being the case, why ask for enlightenment on who and what are the type of men who DON"T cheat?

Rdgs
 

miloice

Well-Known Member
"You don't have the qualities to attract men who DON'T cheat!"

Wah.... so kengleetan,
faithful men have stamps on their foreheads or something is it?

Why don't you enlighten everyone on what is the so-call qualities that will attract men who DON'T cheat??
 

skylar

New Member
how to spot a man who DONT cheat?!??! that is news?? Pls enlighten us all..

Powderful,
since u apologized SINCERELY for using me, LFY shall forgive u....
 

lychee

New Member
thank you for knowing what qualities i have or have not.. but your assessment of me, dun makes it "ME". Whether or not what kind of man i attract, it matters not, you can even say that I dun attract man, period. But i never asked how do i attract a faithful man or not. And so the purpose of your post is..??
 

lychee

New Member
Yes powderful, you are being an arse here (this tread).. since you asked me to say what i think, but not to the adviced you offered. Thoes I will keep in mind, dun mean that i like what you assess about me, or i agree to it or it makes it me, but you stand for what you believe, while i stand at mine. And since much earlier, I already asked for truce because i dun really want to go into a word war and keep harping about it.. "you are emotional, admit it, it's your emotion etc etc" it's almost like a wife harping at the husband that you are cheating.. admit it you are cheating.. and any other scenario fits..

And you asked what makes a woman unemotional, i can't answer for all woman. But for me, it's when i see life and death all the time, that i have to kill life to save life, and i can't go crying every time for the little mice that i killed. Humans are emotional, that's why we are human, it's how well they cloak that emotions and keep them in check and suppress that emotion, sometimes it works, sometimes it dun. Hence seeing them as being unemotional dun mean that they are without emotion, just that the matter means so little that little feeling can be felt, or that we can't make ourselve feel at all.. i probably didn't really answer your question or went out of point, but frankly, you can have that last word on my character again if it pleases you. And I can tell you that it dun really matter. I dun really need to have the last word to prove a point. And not that i'm saying that you do.. so dun go jumping the gun again on me..
 


powderful07

New Member
Well...I behave like an arse, you behave like a little bitch...fair enough...

Looking from my angle...at least I can comfort myself on the fact that I don't fly into a rage for nothing...and uses "bloody fcuk off" in my first correspondence to anyone who don't derserve it...I'm a man...I count myself lucky that I don't have to resort to using being emotional as a reason or excuse....So being a woman, you're excused...

And oh, the reason why I keep harping on your emotional status is NOT to highlight to you whether if you are emotional or not...it's to emphasis on the flip-flop nature of your posts...your tendency to switch your story as and when it suits you...I guess you didn't see that underlying message...Hardly surprising....
 

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