Should I break off or continue to wait?

[nicole_ng]

I’m in a dilemma, don’t know what to do now.

I’m a divorcee w/o kids and currently in a relationship with my boyfriend for 7 years. We have been delaying our marriage plans due to some problems from my boyfriend’s side.

He’s a bankrupt due to failed business when we were in our 2nd/3rd year but I chose to stick with him as I know he’s not someone who will give up on himself. He’s a nice man and doesn’t fool around behind my back. He’s thrifty on himself yet willing to spend on me.

Things between us have been great until reality hits me hard. My boyfriend is staying with his parents and his single sister in a 3-room flat. This flat is under my boyfriend’s and his sister’s name but he’s paying for the mortgage solely from his CPF. His eldest brother went through a divorce in 2007, sold his flat and moved back to my boyfriend’s place (slept in the living room). When the brother finally obtained his Absolute in early Jan 2008, he announced that he’s marrying his girlfriend (a foreigner) in 2-weeks time. When the parents questioned him where would they be staying, he simply just said he wanna stay in this flat (my boyfriend’s). The parents have no choice but to let them have their master bedroom. His dad sleeps in the living room while the mum sleeps in my boyfriend’s room together with the sister.

Both of us have been discussing about our marriage plan since 2007. Initially, my boyfriend has the intention of transferring the flat to his brother but that was before his announcement of his 2nd marriage. Boyfriend changed his mind after knowing that the brother has the intention of getting his own flat and will need his sister’s name in the new flat as well (to lessen the housing loan). If everything went smoothly, I will then put my name in this current 3-room flat and return whatever CPF amount to his sister.

However, everything went wrong. The sister is not in good terms with the brother and not willing to purchase a flat together with him. My boyfriend had a hard time to persuade her. Next, all banks rejected his brother’s loan application as he doesn’t have 2 years income assessment. He went to appeal to HDB (which I have told them it will be rejected) couple of times, talked to MP etc. and was been rejected. No one in his family bothered to do anything except my boyfriend and I. Both of us talked to friends who worked in banks as well as property agents but his brother did nothing. Every time his reply would be waiting for HDB’s reply.

I’m very, very tired. We have never quarrel before but ever since these problems occur, things have changed. Boyfriend told me not to worry and he will settle everything. But with what???

I don’t want my boyfriend to be in a difficult position. He’s forcing his brother to move out first. He has mentioned to me that the biggest obstacles will be his parents but I do not wish to come to a stage where he has to choose and do not want him to fell out with his parents

Should I just let go of this relationship or to continue waiting? I’m 34 and him, 38. I have even thought of getting my own flat next year but looking at the crazy price now, it’s impossible for me to afford a flat on my own. I do not want to subject myself to a huge debts and slave myself to death just because of a flat.

 

[sgbabydoll]

Hi, why do you want to get married, have you figured that out yet?

 

[nicole_ng]

Yes, we want to spend our lives together, start a family of our own.

 

[jojo28]

i feel that you should not let go of this relationship. Further more, i think that your bf has been doing everything he can do. Ask yourself, do you really love him and willingly to wait?

 

[sgbabydoll]

You know his situation better than any of us here. If you want a certain outcome only, he already is doing his best will never work for you.

Ask yourself, what do you want at the end of the day - bf or marriage - if you can only choose one or the other?

 

[nicole_ng]

snowy, I don't think he can do much really judging from what I'm observing. I don't even know what am I waiting for anymore and how long should I wait. Wait for him to discharge so that he can sell the flat and we then purchase our own place? Or wait for his brother to get a flat (if he can be realistic and can ever afford) and the whole family move in? Or wait for his parents to rent a flat with HDB?

So what if his brother moves out with his foreign wife and rent a place? We still need to tackle his parents. I do not want when the time comes, he has to make a decision or choose between us. I don't want him to chase his family out of the house just because of me.

Even his mum said we can definitely get married next year but when question her how, she just kept quiet.

I've been hearing from him that his brother is looking around for a place but only talk, no action. Even right at the begining, his brother didn't do anything. I was the one to check all details, look at properties prices, email him those locations that he could possibly afford but end of the day, he couldn't be bothered.

 

[lovingyou]

Nicole: Hm... it is a rather tricky question that you are facing. I suppose both the parents aren't working? What about the sis? How old is she? Is she working? Perhaps the name could be transferred to the sister instead? If it doesn't work, Hmm.. I suppose the next issue will be the brother and thus, perhaps your bf might want to explain to his parents that there is too limited a space to accommodate his brother upon he is married and moreover, explain to his bro that newly weds might want a private place on their own?

 

[alcifertoh]

Hi, so you are looking forward to have the privacy with him only without his family members under the same roof?

At this rate it goes, do you think it is possible for that to be achieved? Are you willing to compromise in other solutions than that?

Although your bf is trying, you have to be realistic to the limitation of his current ability. If he can't fulfill what you are looking for and you can't compromise, then you have to think of alternatives.

"So what if his brother moves out with his foreign wife and rent a place? We still need to tackle his parents. I do not want when the time comes, he has to make a decision or choose between us. I don't want him to chase his family out of the house just because of me."

Rather contradicting isn't it? Because as what I can see now, you seem to be the pushing factor and although you mentioned that you do not wish him to chase his family out or such, you are in the equation of such decisions.

I do feel for the parents and sister. They were made like they are baggages.

 

[shirleypoise]

I had the same qn as HBH after reading your posts.

Aren't you chasing them out by wanting to takeover their house and yet not want them around? You do not want him to make that decision bet u n his parents when the time comes but you seemed to have made that decision for him already.

I'm not sure if it's possible so you might wanna check it out, can your bf transfer the ownership of the house to one of his parent so that you two can go buy your own house elsewhere? That way you will have your own 二人世界 without seeming to chase his family out of their own house.

If it cannot be done, can he move into your existing house?

If all else fails, go rent a flat.

 

[shirleypoise]

I have missed the most important qn in your post.

"Should I just let go of this relationship or to continue waiting?"

Are you considering breaking off from this r/s cuz of e flat issue or the family issue?? And you r sure you were considering marriage prior to this? Is time a factor for you, as in do you need to get married by X age? If not, why the question? Cuz you are tired of his problem?

Let him settle his flat/family problem w/o you getting involved, that will resolve the quarrels bet the two of you. If you have been with him for so many years, you should be able to trust him to solve the problem.

 

[powder]

Nicole,

whilst most pple deserve a 2nd chance... yourself into a 2nd attempt at marriage and him a 2nd attempt at a future after bankruptcy, u must also understand one very fundamental ingredient when grabbing this 2nd chance - Both of U Must Work Harder and put in More Effort than most...

the problems are not there becos the chance isn't given, the problems are there becos Despite knowing this problem all along, Both of u just went about a normal pace Hoping for things to turn out well, banking purely on Time-factor, and lotsa goodwill + hope.

Life Doesn't work that way. 7yrs in the relationship and assume 4yrs since he was bankrupted, and the Effort-ratio may leave alot to be desired.

pls remember - if u Want something, u must deserve it... if u wanna deserve something, u must work for it!

looking at things now, his family seems to be brought up on a laidback, leave-it-to-fate attitude... seeing that all 3 siblings at a rather mature age, are somehow Still living in a 3rm with parents. I would assume the sister is financially unable to finance the 3rm, and i would assume your bfren is unable to reimburse his CPF so that he can remove his name, as for the brother i assume he's not someone u can depend on at all...

So given the circumstances and predicament, it's not difficult to pinpoint where the root-causes of the problems lie... your Planning! your efforts does not coincide with your plans, and your plans do not coincide with your wants! u simply know what u want and expect things to fall into place.

i can tell u just ONE simple solution to this whole problem... Money. it would be an easy solution if Everyone actually worked together to get it, unfortunately NOBODY is actually working towards it, but rather - happy with status-quo. until u think abt now....

 

[wjchiang]

good wake-up call

 

[jonah_jo]

Your bf seems to be the one who takes care of the family while the rest just mind their own family. He's like in my position. I felt that since he is the one supporting the flat, he has a right how he's gonna call the shots such as his bro shouldn't stay with them anymore after he's married. As for where his bro is staying with his wife, sorry to say, he should be old enough to think for himself, even if he has to rent a room. That's his business! What your bf can do is more than sufficient. At the end of the day, even if you make sacrifices for everyone, nobody will appreciate. Hence, you gotta spare a thought for yourself.

You're 34. You could still plan 1 or 2 years and work on your budget while thinking about how your financial status is gonna improve. He's a bankrupt so you definitely gotta be prepared if you have a kid, regardless of how careful you may be. And I felt it's time you think about family planning in a few years time.

As for his sis, he can't force her to do anything she doesn't want to. Honestly, it wouldn't be fair for his parents and his sis to stay with you while both of you support the flat after marriage. What happens if you have kids?

 

[nicole_ng]

Thanks all for the comments and I really appreciate that. Maybe power is right. We didn't think far when we started out. I wasn't even thinking of marriage then but things just progressed this way.

Jonah, he's the most sensible one among them. I don't want to bad mouth his brother here but he's the one who never think for them, be it in his 1st or 2nd marriage. Throughout all these years, I have witnessed how he had treated his parents, giving countless problems to my boyfriend etc. The moment he ran into trouble, my boyfriend will be the 1st one he approached. If my boyfriend refused to help, he seeks help from the mother (the mother loves the eldest son more), and she will then tell my boyfriend that he should help no matter what since they are brothers. And of course, I'm the devil too. At times I will stop him from helping too cos he has done more than enough.

As for his sister, she doesn't earn much due to some illness she has. She's very careful with her money and there's no way to tell her that she should share to support the flat (the most is just the downpayment, for monthly contribution - no way)

Sometimes I wonder, did I give his family the impression that I would never leave (I didn't leave either when he declared bankrupt) and they took advantage of me? I know I'm not being fair to say this but can't help to feel this way. Boyfriend has been telling his brother to move out since last year but his brother just NATO.

Kids? I don't even dare to think anymore (but it's nothing to do with his bankruptcy)

 

[powder]

powder hor... not power.

nicole, i think u need to first and foremost - recognise your own value as a person, else u'll not be picking suitors who actually suit u, but rather, guys u feel are emotionally 'safe' for u to have a future with.

if u're not thinking abt kids, then the marriage is pretty worthless in paper isn't it? in fact it could be detrimental... i'd rather be a couple where both can buy a HDB as Singles, than a couple that can only buy ONE hdb as a family nucleus. Since u're not having a baby, what possible benefits is there in legalising your union with a bankrupt?

now tat's a fact... i have nothing against bankrupts by the way, i was almost one myself, but definitely i would never consider marriage whilst in bankruptcy... finance got problem, travel got problem, crdit got problem, loan got problem... marry for wat? no solid reason rite?

his family matters, but it should matter As It Is, not matter in how u can change them. as one grows older, the chances of one changing their mindset gets lower... at 38 in this predicament, i think the warning signs are pretty obvious, so do reconsider...

whilst the 2 of u seem to adopt a 'let nature take its course' attitude, u must really understand that Money isn't part of Nature's offerings, yet u need quite abit of it. so work on that artificial factor - money.

 

[jonah_jo]

I agree with what powder said. I used to do everything for my family after my parents divorced. Eventually, I have to be the bad guy to push them to do things themselves in order to send the msg across - I HAVE A LIFE OF MY OWN.

At 38, for a guy, more or less his character is fixed. You don't expect a guy to change, he will change provided he wants to. Anything else is temporal.

If you don't see yourself having kids with him, perhaps it's time you ask yourself if you see a future with him.

Bankruptcy is not the end of the way. He may snap out of it, he may not. So you're in for a risk.

You should have a heart to heart talk and know what plans he has. Don't tell you things like - he will settle everything. Settle what? He's MP meh? Or he's a millionaire? If he is, he wouldn't be so troubled now. Couples should confide in each other and be frank.

Altho one's financial status doesn't determine your fate (provided you prove to be different), money is a vital factor when it comes to marriage and family planning. You may not think of having kids but WHAT IF??? Ever thought about that???

The way he deals with money shows his maturity and how he plans a future with you. He needs to be accountable to you and don't expect you to be tolerant as he is and accept everything as he does.

 

[losingheart]

Let not the issue of a flat make you ponder should you leave him or not. Your relationship with him emcompasses the love you have for each other. But your relationship with him doesn't revolve around the flat.

 

[tomasulu]

"I have even thought of getting my own flat next year but looking at the crazy price now, it’s impossible for me to afford a flat on my own. I do not want to subject myself to a huge debts and slave myself to death just because of a flat."

as oppose to what? renting? or staying with your parents? most of us have to work to afford the place we live in. by your definition, most of us are slaves to our housing loans.

but don't forget that buying a property is also a form of investment. for most singaporeans, it is a very familiar form of investment, and if you get the timing right, one with a very manageable risk. the scary part about buying a property is not having to take up a loan. it is getting into a negative equity situation where your property is worth less than what you owe. otherwise i think everyone should get onto the property ladder asap. at the very least, you get to save on rent or live in a place you can call your own. what's not good about that?

have you actually gone to view flats out there? perhaps a 3-room flat situated in a less desirable estate? don't just strike off the option just because everyone is talking about the 'crazy' property prices.

 

[shirleypoise]

"Sometimes I wonder, did I give his family the impression that I would never leave (I didn't leave either when he declared bankrupt) and they took advantage of me?"

In wat way did they take advantage of you? Why would you think that they took advantage of you?

Sensibility does not come naturally to all pple. I still think that this is his family issue and that you should not be commenting too much on it unless u r really planning to take over and move into the flat. Since you are not thinking about marriage at this point, then just let him take his time to resolve the issue.

If his housing and family issues are making you re-think if your r/s, then I dun think you are ready for marriage. Please do not get married for the sake of a flat.

 

[nicole_ng]

Thank you all for the replies. I have been pondering over what you guys wrote especially on powder’s and jonah’s posts.

Powder, I don’t quite understand what you meant by “recognise your own value as a person, else u'll not be picking suitors who actually suit u, but rather, guys u feel are emotionally 'safe' for u to have a future with.†Mind explaining to me, pls?


“Hi, so you are looking forward to have the privacy with him only without his family members under the same roof?â€

Hei Bee Hiam,
Which girl doesn’t? I can’t say all but most girls would prefer to have privacy with spouses. In my previous marriage, I’ve stayed with the in-laws, enduring their mistreatment and nonsense yet told myself “It’s okay. They are just adjusting to my presence etc.†I’m not saying my boyfriend’s family will do the same like my ex. They are different.


breakingFree,
How shall I put it? It’s like when my boyfriend mentioned about our quarrels while talking to his brother (sometimes while arguing) about his moving out, the latter will just remain nonchalant. His mother will reply “Aiyo, don’t worry, you guys will be fine†etc. Sometimes she will tell the brother to quickly find a place when boyfriend & him argue. His dad & sister remain quiet all the time. When boyfriend asked if his brother would only take action when I break off with him? His family will simply say “Don’t talk rubbish, you guys will not break off†“this is just a small matter, break off for what?†“Will not happen lah†etc.

His brother & his wife were supposed to move out by last month (already gave them plenty of deadlines). Every time when the deadlines came, he kept saying soon, soon, already found one & finalising the details (it’s just a rented place, what’s there to finalise?) blah blah blah.

I kept asking boyfriend why can’t he be firm enough to say no instead of making us miserable? Why can’t he see that his brother is just playing lip services?

I’m starting to think twice, not on the flat issue but more on his family issues. I couldn’t imagine what will life be like after marriage.

 

[shirleypoise]

Nicole, u have been planning marriage since 2007 but when are you 2 planning to get marry?

I can understand that it can be very tiring n frustrating on your part that this issue is not resolved, but wouldn't it be more so on your bf? Esp when you do not appear understanding enuf of his situation but is pressurising him to quickly resolve it. I dun think he has any control over the issue also..

If your marriage plan is still some time away, do consider his situation b4 you push him into resolution again.

 

[jonah_jo]

Hi Nicole

Let me try explaining “recognise your own value as a person, else u'll not be picking suitors who actually suit u, but rather, guys u feel are emotionally 'safe' for u to have a future with.

He could mean you gotta love yourself enough if you marry, any guy you marry is bcos you feel he's good enough for you, can complement you and your lifestyle and not pick guys who could offer you a future whether in terms of financial or emotional aspects where they make you feel safe and wanted etc.

I don't know if I'm right. Just a guess.

In a way, yes you don't really decide to marry a person revolving around the issue of getting a flat but frankly speaking, it's something you need to consider. You can't get a flat with no planning. But like Who? Me? said, it's possible for you yourself to get a flat yourself depending on the location and level. You could choose somewhere which is not prime location and perhaps on the lower level.

Then again, all these planning about flat, finances come after the big question - you sure you wanna settle with him? Why? All these you really need to ask yourself.

Take your time bcos marriage is a lifetime. You can't rush him if he's not ready. And don't push him to make decisions he's not ready esp about his family. You gotta accept him the way he is - you can't change him.

 

[powder]

hi nicole,

why i said that is becos u might subconsciously de-value yourself after tha first attempt at marriage, and perhaps consider yourself lesser in a way... thus u might have been abit relaxed on certain criterias which are necessary to your happiness.

u have to ask yourself if subconsciously, u picked him becos he isn't the most eligible, and in some ways - a safe choice. He can be a nice guy, but i think if planning ahead, u might need more than simply a nice guy. there are other criterias which u need too...

the way i see it, your needs are rather basic, which Although is good, i would think u should at least make your needs 'simple' instead of 'sparse'. u may say u dun need this and that, but the fact that u are having the problems NOW - shows that u Need this and that.

everyone in the family seems to adopt a 'let nature take its course' or 'see how first' attitude... This is a family that seems to breed Inaction. it is an attitude i personally do not tolerate when dealing with the future... It's not wrong to have this attitude, but it depends very much on your financial capabilties, doesn't it? Poor pple and Bankrupts who adopt this attitude do not live happy lives... they live very restricted life and as much as they may tell u they are happy, it's mostly becos they dun know what happiness is, nor dare think abt it. They do not believe their life has possibilities, but instead 'accept their fate'.

whilst i believe he and u are abit more 'action' pple, i also believe both of u have fallen into the 'inaction' mode. yeah u can ask all u want, but pls lor - u are asking Poor pple to do what Poor pple cannot do, and that is to take up fiancial commitments via shifting out. When u find yourself depending on 3rd parties for your Future and Happiness, u're simply being inactive Yourself.

so can i assume that if they dun shift out for 10yrs, and the family let nature take its course for 10yrs, and your bfren tries to coax them for 10yrs... that u are Very Willing to lose this 10yrs???

personally, i dun wait for pple who are too slow for me. my life is not worth waiting for others, nor depending on others, tat's why i only depend on myself.

as much as i wanna believe in your bfren, i have said - "7yrs in the relationship and assume 4yrs since he was bankrupted, and the Effort-ratio may leave alot to be desired." - so i WILL NOT wait for such a guy, not a minute more.

u have every right to choose to wait for things to happen. Time has every right to keep ticking and let u age and wither til u are left Resigned.

if u have actually learnt to love yourself, u would have left 2yrs ago. Even if he had wanted a better life, it is pointless.

thousands of sporeans Want, Think, Hope for a better life. the reason why they dun get it is not becos they have no chance, but mostly - becos they do not Will It.

alot of pple will think that it is wrong for me to say that, and alot of pple will start saying 'i have no choice', and alot of pple will blame this blame that... It really doesn't matter becos nomatter what they say, they will not find happiness until they actually do something.

the way i see it, u will be at this same place for the next 2-3yrs... any changes will be minimal and inconsequential. your life will not change even if these changes take place. it is likely to deteriorate.

take care

 

[nicole_ng]

Things have changed quite abit after more than 2 years. I was still considering what powder had posted previously when suddenly BF announced he has finally discharged in Oct 2009. He has sold the flat to his brother and his family will be staying with his brother too. Things were good and we finally decided to tie the knot end of this year. ROM & AD dates, Venue and Bridal studio have been confirmed. I was happy, really.

But last night, he came to see me and dropped me a bomb. He actually became someone's guarantor few years ago whilst he was still a bankrupt! (Don't ask me how he did that) and that person has disappeared. The debtors have came to find him. I didn't want to listen anymore and get off from his car and ran away. All i heard was 180K and he has approached his brother (he's a better and more responsible man now) and uncle for help.

He waited at the void deck till i reached home and explained everything to me. My mind was blank, hands were cold, my heart was numb from all the pain. Told him to call off the wedding and I will explain to my family but he begged me to give him a month. But how can I? We were supposed to select our flat next month, go for fitting next week etc. I have the means to help him but not at one time but should I help him? He didn't ask for my help initally cos I lied that I can approach a friend but he stopped me. Finally he lower his pride and asked if I can load him partial loan and he will settle the rest, I didn't agreed cos I didnt want history (my ex hubby) to repeat itself.

Why does thing have to go wrong at this point? I ignore my instinct when I heard his tone over the phone and actually thought he's giving me a surprise cos it was a day before my birthday.

 

[texasholdem]

sound to me he is in debts..and cook up some story to tell u he become someone guarantor

 

[miloice]

how to be guarantor when he is still a bankrupt? plain bullshit.

 

[infojunkie]

u hv 2 options - help him or dump him.

personally, i think u should let go of this relationship if u know that there will be no end to his money troubles...

cos it's not going to be easy...

sooner or later, it will kill all ur love and respect for him... if any.

 

[miloice]

The least he should have come clean than insult your intelligence with something this lame. Not at all assuring. How to trust and help him this way?

 

[soisuka]

At first I was gonna say flat, small issue, then I see the latest post about loan....hmmm may I just enquire if it's a bank loan or errrr loan shark type?

It just sounds like this guy has problems with managing his finances and priorities. And at 38 no less, hmmm I would think twice too. Oh did u say he has a car?! I never really understand guys who are in debt and yet insist on keeping a car....

You can help him if u want but really only if u can afford to lose, I always treat money loaned as money gone....they don't always come back....

 

[susanna_low]

As much as u feel tempted to help, please keep your hard earned $$ to yourself.

My sil lend her ex over 200k from the sales of the flat left behind fr her late father, that b*stard promised to pay but ended up MIA.
She was left broke.

Even if he's your hb, it's better to keep $$ for emergency.

 

[denise80]

Nicole, I don't know what to say. You had so many experiences with your last marriage and with this current bf. I thought you would be able to judge your man better. I agree with most here that he just cooked up a story. Why he's always in debts? Do you even know? Is he a compulsive gambler? Or, is he a gullible person who lends $ easily to ppl? Remember 'nice' men can mean the man is stupid (sorry to say this) too in giving his $ away freely.

I believe it's not about the $ you have to part to be with this kind of man. It's about the 'trust' that is apparently diluting. If I were you, I would have dumped him long ago. I feel you've lowered your standards too much for this man or for this relationship. You will really be better off on your own.

 

[scopefun]

Nicole,

There is an old saying... å赌ä¹è¾“.

Actually, the point is... as you have said yourself... When you talked about marriage the mother said 'OK OK!', but you asked 'How?'.

If you analyse the entire sweet family of his... His brother marries a foreigner even without a house. Now how the hell will ICA even approve her, I don't know. The point is, the brother just do things as he desire, like the mother, promised without going through the brains.

This family doesn't care about consequence. And yes... If he is a bankrupt, how the fock he got a car?

I don't get it~!

Love is fate lah... I am not saying he's definitely lying... But he is 38yo, he doesn't even know how to feed you and he go and feed a car!

You are 34yo, and all you got is the savings...

The real issue is... even if his problem is real, given the way he manages finance, even if you help him this time...

How many times can you help him? You are not the government, you don't print money.

If he is indeed the guarantor, he should have some documented proof. No proof, no help.

 

[susanna_low]

She first posted in 2009, now she's 37 n the guy is 41.

 

[scopefun]

Ting Yi, you'd make a nice secretary...

 

[susanna_low]

Anyway the point is now she's capable of getting a flat of her own without the need to be bounded by a pc of marriage cert.

Hopefully she wont get pressurised by the family to fork out cash for the loan. This is what happened to my SIL.
That ex n the family begged her to lend them $$ but once $$ lended, nobody take up responsibility to return the $ to her. The r/s turned sour n they are uncontactable now.

The same goes to my hb n his used to be best friend. He lend 2k to him to tide over the bad times when his own family is also capable enough to loan him. We lend based on trust and also due to so many years of friendship.

Instead of being grateful, he distanced away and my stupid hb also never pursued the matter.
Lending is as good as giving, if you lend, don't expect to get back and what makes it worst is that it soured the r/s.

Just recently, a friend asked me for a $500 loan and I rejected immediately. Won't be so stupid to lend anyone $$ again.

 

[texasholdem]

so the guy is a bankrupt now or?