Sexual harassment at work is it common?

miloice

Well-Known Member
hi Jo Ou,

if you intend to put a stop to you, you need to gather the needed evidence. You need to proof the harrassment.

Do not take it that you should just remain silent about it. If the escalation is blocked, its time to escalate to the next level. Its still very blur to me why you are finding it so difficult to voice out about the harassment. This is probably the reason why he is getting bolder. No one can help you if you just let it happen again and again.

Is he a family member or relative? What are you fearing?
 


powder

Active Member
it's a no-brainer that "physically conering a person? smses asking for IT." are pretty downright offensive... and u should have no hesitation in seeking redress from a higher authority within company First. and if that isn't gonna happen, the next step is inevitable.

u should not have to be sercretive abt it becos u did no wrong... even more - u dun have to be secretive in the forum since identities are withheld.

i am just amazed at the inability for pple to understand chronology in the most basic manner... it's disappointing yet again, to know that such inapt ability to understand actually exists.
 

miloice

Well-Known Member
Powder, seems she is concerned over reasons that she is unwilling to share... "cannot accept the repurcussions that it would have on the affected parties".

Hence, my guess the offender is probably someone related to her directly or a close friend's spouse or something of that sort.
 

powder

Active Member
i'm bailing out liao... i dun understand why already being anonymous and etc, some basic facts can't be presented if looking for solutions... if this thread goes on another 2 pages, there may be further new info... like maybe the aggessor is her current bfren or something.

on forum act tough, then in real life keep quiet suffer in silence... how to help? it's like asking a police to help in abuse case, but when the police come - u shout at them for being busybody.
 

tomasulu

Member
powder, for whatever reasons, it is not easy for some to stand up for themselves. we don't need to compound that difficulty by blaming the victim for her lack of candor or courage. it is also pretty offensive to say you will fire someone for going to the police without first going to the boss. even if it is the better way to handle the matter.
 

miloice

Well-Known Member
Le gros ours (giantemu) put it pretty clearly. Generically speaking, it is pretty true. No matter how you argue about it be offensive or not.

However, if its a clear cut case, then I duno why TS is still needing to ask for more opinions anymore. Its a matter of whether she wants to protect herself or not.
 

miloice

Well-Known Member
Consequence doesn't disappear. But, it doesn't mean the crime has to be condoned either. The person involved will have to face the consequence. This is reality of it all.
 

tomasulu

Member
maybe. but you and me, we can decide on the attitude we adopt and the advice we give. why focus on the victim or possible negative consequences? how's it helpful to suggest that the victim will likely have to quit her job??

is it even our reality?? we don't live in some pakistani village.
 

miloice

Well-Known Member
No need to sugar coat things to encourage her with rosy picture.

She should deal with it with a clear mind, not a clouded one. I'm more concerned over her reasons which she is trying to remain mum about. Seems more than just her job at sake.

And if her job is what she is concerned with, all the more she should carefully handle it. If its clear cut cases, the proof part is really not an issue at all. Having incriminating SMS and her rejection to him is more than sufficient to proof of harrassment.
 

miloice

Well-Known Member
Speaking in our society context and not some pakistani village. The reality of it all is not even revealed up to now. Seems much more than meets the eye.
 

tomasulu

Member
people talk like they know what the likely consequence is gonna be. i have never encountered such a scenario. but if it happened in my workplace, i imagine everyone in my office will be glad that the prep gets his just due. whether it is an immediate dismissal or that and some legal trouble. and we'd be extra nice to the victim.
 

powder

Active Member
toma,

i took awhile to explore... in a company and personal context. i dun wanna argue for the sake of defending my earlier posts... so this is wat i have to share...

1) report - YES, Definitely. Internally first.
2) fight back - YES, Definitely.
3) report to police without trying to sort internally - if the harassment is physical and escalating.

from a boss POV, i think i'd like to at least KNOW first... it is happening in My Company. if it is something that can be controlled whereby i can simply sack the aggressor, i think i should be given that opportunity. PLS NOTE this is Provided that it is Not Physical harassment which to me is downright molestation/abuse etc...

if u go straight to the poice... AND PROVIDED that it remains non-physical... then yes, i would consider offloading this person. i dun think i need to excuse myself from this...

Toma, why would u think it's not easy for a person to stand up for themselves, to harassment? by virtue of an opinion?
 
my friend was harassed by her supervisor previously. In a way, it could be interpreted as "friendliness" on the part of the sup, such as putting his arms across her shoulders. My friend wasn't comfortable with it and told him off. But the sup continued to do so, whenever he had the chance to.

Eventually my friend quitted the job and informed HR of the harassment during her exit interview. And.. basically, HR gave her a scolding why she didn't report the case earlier? And the sup wasn't penalised at all.
 

matka

Member
Momo, I think your friend's former supervisor wasn't penalised because she didn't lodge the complaint during her tenure there. She should have done it earlier, if she expects HR to act on it.

By the time HR found out, she was going to leave the organisation anyway. To them, it would be easier not to pursue the matter with the harasser.

--

Jo Ou, for the sake of justice, I feel you should pursue the matter with the higher ups. It is insulting and obviously that person does not respect you by making such lewd, unwanted propositions. Since he thinks he can get away with it, he will do it again to others.

Don't give any face.
 

tomasulu

Member
powder, i'd agree to what you wrote. except i wont dismiss the victim, even if i think she could have handled the matter differently. it doesn't make sense to punish the victim further. moreover, you will invite a lawsuit on wrongful termination.

isn't it obvious why victims may not want to report the harassment?
 

powder

Active Member
well toma, if u were bypassed on a non-physical harassment and the police are invited to your company for investigations... i dun see how as a leader of the organization, u'd wanna keep such a person.

there's various factors here to be considered and we can't take anything specific, that's why i have made an effort to add some explanation to the severity... but some idiots keep insisting on using a general guide.

i am terminating the victim not for the harassment, but for bypassing me and Not coming to me first. so i dun think it constitutes as a further punishment... cos it isn't a punishment. should there be future cases of discepancies, internal squabbles, even pilferage... if every darn case is not reported internally first, and the police is involved as a First choice... u try running the company.

as a father, if u have a kid who reports to the police whenever u have a dispute in the family... would u disown the kid? we have different approaches... but as far as i am concerned, some matters that should be sorted out Inhouse, should be sorted out inhouse. u dun wanna wake up one day to find your son sueing your daughter for libel, your daughter lodging a report on your wife for theft.

same within the company. this is Harassment, it is not molest, nor rape... i think as the boss/superior, u have every fcuking right to Know and handle it internally first.

the damage and consequence to the company should come foremost... with over 100 mouths to feed and support in their quest for a better life, would u keep this person who doesn't fcuking tell u, but chooses the police??? i have every authority to sack the fcuker who harasses her, but since i was not given the opportunity, would i take a chance to have her in my company for future tresspasses that could happened?

it's like avoiding the red light district in order not to get tempted... i'd sack the person in order not to allow any further Poor decisions to be made. her decision will directly impact the company... and since the decision made is poor, in what position should i keep a person with poor decisions?
 

stanzza

New Member
Are we too serious and uptight?

I think non-physical suggestion or conversation (or harressment you could interpret it) is part and parcel of life isn't it? You know, the mating rituals.. If the person stops after you told him you r not interested, then is fine. If not, then only I would consider it an harressment.

Hey I'm a guy and got my exp also. Was sleeping on a chair years ago in office alone and a young female collegue just climb up on me and sit on my lap (face 2 face)Guess what? I was happy ;)

It depend on whether u like the person as well as whether the person stop if you ask him rgt? LOL~
 

stanzza

New Member
@Jo Ou:

On a more serious note, I would advise you to speak firmly to this guy that you r not interested and would tell his boss if he continue. If he does, speak to your boss and make sure this guy receive the message.

I think such things are normal. Part of man's courtship ritual (for whatever purpose) include singling out the girl such as cornering physically. You would find it offensive if you don't like the guy.

He should stop if you ask him. That would still be considered reasonable behavior. If he doesn't, then it is harressment.

If man are not taking initiative, how does couples get together LOL~ Some level of such activity do arise. As long as the guy stop when made clear that it is unwelcome, then it should be fine in my opinion.
 

matka

Member
Erm. Asking a colleague for sex over SMS is normal and part of the 'courtship ritual'?

What is he? A monkey?
 

miloice

Well-Known Member
Frankly, its not obvious at all. Jo Ou is not saying and none of us know why. I don't see how its so obvious for toma.
 

kenturik

New Member
stanzza, that guy is asking for 'IT' and I hope that 'IT' is not refering to a simple lunch here.... right? Do you go around the office asking for it or asking to get it? What courtship ritual is that? And what courtship ritual should there be in an office environment? I think we are making the line grey here
 

kittenpie

New Member
powder,

===============================================
if u go straight to the poice... AND PROVIDED that it remains non-physical... then yes, i would consider offloading this person. i dun think i need to excuse myself from this...

=================================================

i am speaking to provide a different perspective, not as if i have ever encountered this before myself or as if i had special legal knowledge. im not arguing for the sake of arguing, but i would like all of you to consider these:

1) why should harassment be non-physical before you deem that the victim is rightful to go straight to the police? non-physical types of harassment can be equally traumatising as physical. it could be gestures of a highly insulting nature, or even flashing, or unsolicitated display of other forms of obscenities, or strong language of a personal and vulgar nature. it could also be veiled threat of a lewd nature. it could even be throwing of things around (not at the abused party) which is highly abusive but yet still not strictly physical.

i am not an uptight person, but even i would think the above i describe are due causes for recourse.

if the harassment is physical, then it would be MOLEST. would you allow your staff to run to the police ONLY when it escalates to molest?


2) should an employee running to the police necessarily be construed as an act of sowing discord within a company by inviting scrutiny of the police? could it be viewed differently as an employee taking up a case with the police in her own private capacity, such that it becomes a strictly private matter among her, the alleged perpetrator and the authorities?

the exact reason why victims would consider reporting to the police is exactly because her supervisors could dismiss her as a hysterical prude.


powder, if you are to dismiss a young woman who goes to the police when she is under genuine duress (as opposed to being a hysterical prude), when going to the police seemed in her judgment to be the best way to handle the matter, i think you are being too harsh in this. she was operating out of concern for her personal safety, not as if she were out to ruin your team spirit and sow discord. why do you seek to punish a victim?

but to each his own. we all learn something everyday. today, i and all readers of this thread learn that there will be employees like you who would consider firing a woman in the condition you described.

in your first posting to this thread
=================================================
bringing it to the police will make u less desirable to work with, altho i may side u on this matter, i will offload u once this blows over. i dun like to hold staff who sow discord and seek redress over issues they should be able to handle without involving authorities etc.
=================================================

Powder, it is often what you do not say that weighs as much as what you say. in your first posting you did not mention how you would deal with the perpetrator, though you say you would fire the victim (who goes to the police). in your post today you say you would fire, but in your first post you did not.

the overall impression is a void of compassion.

you give me the feeling that you are very hard-hearted in such context. i really hope that no such thing happens to a woman serving under you because any'misstep' could lead to dismissal. as a father of a daughter yourself, you sure are high-handed.

but again, to each his own. not that im saying all these in an attempt to change your mind; im airing my observations.
 

matka

Member
Sexual harassment in Singapore - defined:
http://www.aware.org.sg/ati/wsh-site/4-what-is-it/

These are your legal rights. Your employer has a duty to keep the workplace safe for you.
http://www.aware.org.sg/ati/wsh-site/7-legal-rights/

If your employer is unwilling to step up and do the right thing, whether it is to give the harasser a warning or more, I will suggest that you quit your job and, if you want, seek legal recourse.

There is no point working for an organisation that does not do what is just, or at least make attempts to rectify the wrong - if you have reported it. This is a test of the organisation's integrity - unfortunately at your expense.

But if you don't do anything beyond keeping quiet about it, and the guy continues to harass you, then you will have only yourself to blame. I hope you don't feel taken hostage because of your job.

All the best, Jo Ou
 

sgbabydoll

Active Member
Victims find it hard to voice out the harassment they suffer mainly out of fear and shame. Fear that nobody would believe her story, especially if the perpetrator is a senior person in the company who commands more respect and trust. She may also feel a sense of shame that she is partly responsible for the harassment, by means of her conduct or dressing.
 

simpleman

Active Member
Sad to say, in the context of SG, we are more "tolerating" of such harassment.. In general, unless the gal has good ground and evidence, mostly it may be dismissed. So this is not very healthy. some will choose to leave (and not be subject) to "veiled harassment" - and other newcomers may be the victim.

I have seen, in many levels of management - especially the bosses - they may not take this up seriously enough. And it depends on the culture of the company (and SG), very likely, most girls WILL NOT stand-up and complain to direct bosses when sexual innuendos or suggestive words were used against them.

Powder, Not every manager will take "verbal harassment" seriously. So unless you have emails or SMSes at least, otherwise it will be dismissed. And mostly I have seen, the guy may just get a warning.. and at times, not even a verbal warning.

But going to police for a one-off incident is not a smart thing to do. At the very least, report once to the immediate superior. And if it happens again then yes, even if it is verbal, the "victim" will have a right to report to police.

My company has a very "secretive" department in which we can blow whistle. It guarantees you 100% that your identity will not be exposed - and you can report on your bosses's bosess or anyone - not only sexual harassment but others such as abuse of position, inappropriate use of company funds, "unethical behaviour".

Many of these are spelt out clearly for everny employee. And every year, we have to sign and make sure we understand the guidelines. If your breach any of those guidelines, dismissal is almost certain - no questions to be asked. They even set out example on what is harassment. And what is abuse of power. We even have to take a online test to make sure we understand the guideline.

I think it is a very good practice.. But sadly, very few companies have such a policy.
 

matka

Member
SM, sounds like very good best practices that your company has adopted. HR must be in tip-top shape... I am guessing MNC and American?
 

kittenpie

New Member
SM, is that your company? can i have the HR policy manual?

I would love to work for a company with such fair and enlightened policies.
 

kenturik

New Member
I think dun wait till verbal harrassment becomes, physical harrassment then we cry rape... wouldnt that be too late? The more you give in the more they will inch up upon you. And why should our ladies or even men to be subjected to such behaviour in the office or anywhere else... and let's even isolate that courtship ritual please.
If you would take it up on your own with the authorities, please do inform your company and I believe that would be the right thing to do.
 

simpleman

Active Member
May,

Ha ha.. have to "embrace" diversity - ie, people regardless of age, sexual orientation, race, religion.. all treated equally.
 

simpleman

Active Member
We have a situation a couple of years ago when one "Senior Manager" was sacked because of sexual harassment.

The harassment is not even physical.. but the guideline is clear - so no arguments. If it is physical, it would be a police case.
 

simpleman

Active Member
I always think the people in the office needs more "protection".

Actually like in many company, the boss always ask the secretary to run personal errands.. like sending flowers to wife.. collecting laundry, booking table for private dinner with wife/parents - all these are not allowed in my company.

Secretary to be used for 'officially business". Yes, it may mean she may need to go with you to hotel to meet clients to take minutes late at night.. but NO, you can't ask her to run personal errands for you.
 

powder

Active Member
well May,

it's always a problem when the actual trespass isn't made known. and we have to extrapolate into infinite possibilities... and within those possibilities, we can have different approaches based on the scenario that we each hold in our minds. Not forgetting the various office environments we're in...

1stly - "Powder, it is often what you do not say that weighs as much as what you say. in your first posting you did not mention how you would deal with the perpetrator, though you say you would fire the victim (who goes to the police). in your post today you say you would fire, but in your first post you did not."

- TS's started off with "anyone encountered this situation before and got the person charged?". SINCE the person is Already Charged... which implies he is found guilty, do i need to explicitly mention that i fire him? it would be in bad taste to keep such a person in this company in the first place even before he gets to harass.

the nature of my company and work is one that requires each individual to be mentally focused and alert... work is 24/7 and u need to be mentally tip-top to do ANY job... so morale, psychological well-being is important... there's more to consider than what most would.

when u think i am harsh, u are thinking on 1 angle, or maybe 2. i have posted my thoughts to toma above...

"as a father of a daughter yourself, you sure are high-handed."
- i have no idea where this statement comes from, nor where its place should be when discussing on a Company perspective. i dun see a need to appeal to my role as a father when discussing my role as a director on a company POV...

SINCE jo has mentioned that the harassment was cornering her and sending her sms to ask for IT (we assume it's Sex)... can we take it with these 2 'facts' and apply the approach as the employee in the handling of this case?

for me, these 2 are things which she can tell me, or her superiors, and let us handle. but instead she runs off to the police... i have to protect my other 99 employees from a person like her... if one day another employee takes food from her table and gets accused of stealing... if someone uses a vulgarity on her and gets reported to the police for verbal abuse... based on the 2 examples she Finally gave, i would think they can be handled by me. but if i was not given a chance, why would i give her the chance to further not give me chances?

she will get terminated becos she does not even bring up problems to be settled internally... so what is the role of the company? where is the thought given to me or the other employees? if the company is not even being treated like one, and the boss is not even being treated like one, then why keep this employee?
 

sgbabydoll

Active Member
Some companies do not have secretaries but personal assistants who assist their bosses in daily business and personal tasks. This means personal errands are legitimate.
 

kenturik

New Member
I wonder how many cases of sexual harrasment in and out of the office are not reported. Is it because of our mentality that we rather keep all these to ourselves then risk tarnishing our name and reputation? Or are we not sure where we stand in the society?

When we see some wrong being done, how often do we stop to make it right. For fear of being involved, we conveniently walk away most time. We prefer not to see and not to hear, pretending that such things didnt happen.

How many times did we kept 'intergrity' out of sight when we knew something is wrong? And would there be a difference if we make it right. Maybe not directly but surely there will be.

Standing up to yourself is not only a personal resposibility, it is a social responsibility. If we behave this way that we are, we will be grooming the next generation as what we are. We may have bigger house, bigger cars, bigger roads and bigger pay but we may not have a bigger heart to accomodate all these.
What the TS brought up will set us thinking, her situation, her deliberation and our responses...
 

simpleman

Active Member
doll,

I will use personal assistants and secretaries interchangeably.

Yes, many companies may not draw the line.. But I am not sure if personal errands are 'legitimate" in black and white.. or legitimate because the bosses said so..
 

matka

Member
I think a lot of local companies have veered from the term "secretary" and moved on to "personal assistant" because it sounds "nicer". The role is not clearly defined as to what is okay, what is not. Largely depends on the bosses themselves. I had 2 bosses - one usually bought her own lunch and PA only handled official stuff. Her successor on the other hand, expected the same PA to make coffee, buy lunch, call the wife, book show tickets, etc.
 

kenturik

New Member
Powder, I think you are looking at only one angle. If an employee doesnt report this to the company and seek address with the authorities.

1 it is a personal filing and that have no bearing on the company. 2, she doesnt trust the company will act on it especially this happen within company compound and time.

And I still do not know how this will affect the other 99 - 9999 person in your charge under the company? Would you company wind up because of this? Would you lose the next 999 orders?

If it does, then as her manager, I will fire you... why wouldnt you know and why wouldnt you be able to keep the other 999 working because of a police report????
 

simpleman

Active Member
matka,

Exactly, that is why a lot of local bosses just act blur and ask personal assistants to do "personal staff for them".

If the "personal assistant" is paid out of his own pocket money, than no issue - you can ask her to do all personal stuff. But if it is company funds, then in terms of accountability, it has to be clear.

Especially in a lot of govt / stat board, a lot of bosses "abuse" their personal assistants. And they think it is their right to do so..
 

powder

Active Member
sm,

i'm with u on the policy and stuff... i have very low tolerance for harassment of any form. i will address it immediately when i notice it, or nip it in the bud. as a director, i cannot tolerate pple who dun seek my intervention when my doors are open... in fact i dun even have a door, i sit amongst everyone.

i dun really care abt other companies and their senior managers asking for favours and stuff... when i know one of the senior managers are getting the secretary to run errands, i addressed it. i also discourage tabao-ing favours... especially when it will have issues of poorer employees doing the buying most times, and when pple forget to pay them, they dun dare to ask.

how i am made out to be victimizing the victim i have no idea... but i have to accept that this is how everyone views it.
 

simpleman

Active Member
OK.. rule of thumb.

If it is a criminal act.. then report police..

As for the rest, I think the immediate superior should be reported to - at least once.
 

kenturik

New Member
If the company really want to be nasty, the stationary that they provide you is only for office use and not to be taken out.... I dun know if there is a vast different between PA and secretary but by the book both could not be use for personal errands. Though this is usually overlook since they usually like to be in the good book of the boss. Depends largely on the company culture and structure.
 

simpleman

Active Member
We should not veer to theoretical grounds.

Based on the case of TS.. being cornered and sent SMS for sex.

I don't think it is helpful to file a police report for this. This should be reported to superior first. If superior no action, then take it up higher.
 

simpleman

Active Member
kenturik,

Yes, precisely depends on the bosses.. and mostly they will abuse it.

Why can't make it a guideline and ensure no ambiguity.
 

kenturik

New Member
Sm, for simple personal reasons they dun. But I have seen companies whom are strict with the task that the PA could do... and no personal errands... though that have to come from the top down.....
I am an jerk myself, I abuse my PA.....
 

powder

Active Member
kenturik,

if u dun see it, i cannot help u see it. i'm sorry... i dun wish to really go further into it cos i'm tired having to explain.

let's just say if someone took the company stationery home, and i decide to straight report her to the police for stealing from the company... u think it affects her only?

pple will think i'm harsh as a boss rite? well if my secretary comes on to me and i terminate her, pple will think i'm harsh too... if i accept her advances, she will be the slut and i would be the bastard. regardless, many pple are primed to point fingers... if a secretary comes on to me and i report her to the police for harassment - what's your thoughts?

if u cannot my decision to terminate in this very instance... after the aggressor (one of my employees) is charged and jo is still hanging around the office... then u simply cannot. Honestly i dun think it is hard to imagine the ambience in the company if u have an affinity in understanding human behaviours...

PS: if your PA goes to lodge a complaint with MOM for job scopes which is not covered in her contract, but is asked by u... would u be surprised, apologise and keep her After the complaint is lodged? u would wish she told u directly rite?
 


sgbabydoll

Active Member
Sometimes it's hard to separate what's official from personal. I buy my own notepads, pens and pencil, but at times I use my office phone to make personal calls. Hey, I use office time to read and write on this forum in between emails, but I often do part of my work from home and on the move.
 

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