Good title and basic pay vs annual package (Inclusive of performance bonus)

juergen

Member
Hi,

Need advice on this. I received 2 job offers this week and I am still cracking over my head over which offer to choose. Appreciate if I can have some valuable inputs from the people here. Thanks.

Offer 1) Title = Staff Engineer
Basic pay = $4,800 with remuneration adjustment after confirmation
Bonus = 1 month AWS + 1 month variable
Other allowances = Mobile claims and yearly $1,200 personal flexi claims (Can use for personal travels, etc)

Offer 2) Title = Senior Engineer
Basic pay = $4,500
Bonus = 1 month AWS + 3 to 5 months performance bonus
Other allowances = None
Other benefits = Company sponsored educational upgrade scheme (No bond needed)
 


simpleman

Active Member
Just from financial point of view.. offer 2 is 300 less.. means 3900 less a year (13 month)..

But offer 2 has 2 more month of bonus..

Not a rocket science to say offer 2 is more attractive financially..

Unless the 3 to 5 months performance bonus is not realistic.
 

juergen

Member
Offer 2 has been paying 3 months bonus for yr 2009 where every company is in crisis. Their payout in yr 2010 is 5 months bonus.

Just that Offer 1 is semiconductor/electronic industry while Offer 2 is doing air conditioning, heating and refrigeration systems.

Both are US Mncs. But if crisis comes again, offer 1 will get the impact straight away. I myself is tempted for offer 1 as the title will help my career track record but I got to consider other areas like job stability, etc.
 

tomasulu

Member
How old r u? It's a wise saying - learn in your 20s earn in your 30s. Which job offers you a better career because it will equip you with better skills? Instead of looking for job security by hitching onto a particular industry, look to gain ever-green experience and skills that will always be in demand.

Generic titles mean very little; the company matters more.
 

simpleman

Active Member
Seriously, title means very little.. much less a staff engineer.. so if it means equivalent to manager so what? I mean if it is equivalent to manager, they would have called you a manager.

I don't know the hung-up about title.

Look more at the job that will allow you to learn and grow..

You can be clearing the plates in the food court and I can call you Chief Executive Officer of Cleaning.. How does that sound?
 

blossom0501

New Member
happen to click on this post accidentally :p

i agree with simpleman - title is superficial. It's the scope of work and experience/exposure that will add value to your CV when you are seeking greener pastures.

MNCs - every other company is a MNC nowadays. What matters most is
1. Is this MNC a blue chip company?
2. Is this MNC 'branded' and will add brownie points to your CV?
3. How is the company performing for the past few years?

Bonuses are very subjective, especially when it is tagged as 'performance bonus'. Never assume that your record as "a good and efficient worker" based on your current track record with existing employer will continue when you start a new job. When you join a new company, your track record is zero and you have to work on it real hard to earn your credibility, and pray that your superior and peers are righteous and minimal backstabbing and sabotage.

Do some homework first - check the background of both companies and most important, are you replacing someone or is this a new headcount position? You do not want to end up jumping from one yacht into a pirate ship!

My personal opinion: what matters most is what is the definite amount that gets credited into your bank account every month. and if you are not planning to further your studies, what good does the education benefit serves?

Good luck!
 

tomasulu

Member
titles are not completely useless of course. your current title will be the launch pad for your next career move. but the company is more important because it is what gives titles their cachet.

my suggestion is you speak to people in the know. people in the same industry or better yet, employees in the two organizations you are considering.
 

mrslim80

New Member
My suggestion is offer 1. The flex-benefits will kick in when u need it. When a company gives flex-benefits like this, it means also that the employees happiness matters to the company.
 

tomasulu

Member
employees happiness?! $1200? that's some cheap happiness. your hr don't think employees happiness when they give out flex benefits. it is just something they inherited from hq or part of the offer by their benefits supplier.

just based on the numbers, i'm inclined to go for offer 2. the bonus figure tells me the company is very profitable. assuming senior engineer is a grade lower than staff engineer, their average pay scale is probably higher.
 

juergen

Member
I have chosen offer 2 this morning. But now offer 1 comes back and counter me with $5500 per month. That's a difference of $1000 per month. It's really a tough choice now.
 

oneder

New Member
Just Simple Maths will be
1) (4800*12)+4800+4800+1200 = $68,400
2) (4500*12)+4500+(4500*3 or 5) = $72,000 or $81,000

New offer 1) will be (5500*12)+5500+5500+1200 = $78,200

2 offers are about the same now if you look at monetary terms only.
 

juergen

Member
Correct...but offer 1 will give me a better career record in future and of cuz there will be sacrifices to be made as offer 1 involves more travelling and confirm more tough to justify the pay they fork out.

But on the other hand, offer 2 gives me the same monetary terms with more worklife balance and more family time. Career prospects is still early to tell.
 

juergen

Member
Even at 4.8k, offer 2 can only offer me 4.5k..so they cant match offer 1. Maybe is becuz offer 1 is staff engr and offer 2 is only snr engr....that'w why they got a cap for that position...juz that i feel offer 2 is a better environment to work in...somemore i work in semicon industry before and i know how tough it is....for offer 2 is a HVAC industry which seems more stable in terms of crisis...and the $$$ in terms of overall package is almost equivalent...juz that one in payout in every month and the other is one lump sum per year. i have to consider family time oso...offer 2 also got travelling but not so much as offer 1. i'm juz attracted to the basic pay of 5.5k and title only...but i know it's going to be a very tough job to the extent i gotta sacrifice my family time...
 

blossom0501

New Member
My two cents' worth of advice - decision lies with you ultimately and whichever path you decide, DO NOT ever look back and whine and moan and groan.

Everything is opportunity costs. More pay means more work naturally. But give it some thoughts - in our current hectic and competitive environment, is there any one job really stable and provides work-life balance and no sacrifice?

You are still young - 29 years old shouldnt be a time to think about sacrificing family time. You should be thinking about how to leverage on your age and energy to 'cheong', ensure your career path is on track, so that when you reach 35 or 40 years old, you are in a better (and higher) position to provide for the family and yourself.

Work-life balance is just a terminology - it is still back to the individual to manage his/her time efficiently to achieve work-life balance.

If you have already accepted offer 2, though if it is verbal, you may not be able to retract your acceptance. Do deal with this carefully and diligently.

Good luck!
 

susanna_low

New Member
It is more realistic to enter a co with higher fixed salary and seeing the $$ in ur bank a/c every month rather than so called good bonus/comm etc.

1st co - offered 30% less monthly salary but claimed to have good bonus.
Yes they give out good bonus but it's because our union threatened to bring them to court before they give out the promised bonus.

last co - A reputable Malaysia conglomerate but it's the worst co that I've joined. Low monthly salary, no bonus but with commissions based on monthly sales. They claimed that the sales comm will be minimum 1k and more if we sell car/personal insurance as well.
However after joining, the senior staff told us that their average comm is only 200-300 per month on good months.
 

nichie

Member
Yes, go for the higher monthly fixed salary so that you can ask for higher pay in your next job...although salary depend on your jobscope but it also based on the amount of jump from your last drawn salary....bonus is non guaranteed...at 29...go for higher pay and exposure/experience especially regional one...you will not go far or earn a lot if your jobscope/exposure is only local..no future...regional experience always command a premium...regional jobscope is also always more strategic rather than tactical/operational..more analytical dealing w senior level management and not so boring...very helpful if you want to clim the ladder....I am also working in a regional office...definitely more strategic and interesting but the downside is they can easily move their regional office to other country especially china...
 

nichie

Member
Yes, the type of company is also important...not only MNC but it will be better if its a fortune 500 companies with multi billion revenue...no matter how high a position in local SME...your experience or value will be discounted..I have seem a SME manager when switching to a MNC, his position is a non-management one...if possible try to avoid local SME...
 

powder

Active Member
dude,

may be a little late on decision advice, but i'll share a little something...

the 5.5k offer from job1 kinda turns me off, no doubt money is more, but it shows me how much they were trying and being cheap abt it. if i join such companies, i dun think i can expect much from bonus or performance.... no doubt they can try, but 4.8k to 5.5k tells me to be wary of those decision-makers in there.

though most pple pick higher fixed salaries, i've always been one to pick the company that offers me least upfront, but track record shows they pay by merit. if u're a performer, this would be a better criteria than simply higher salaries. of cos if u're only so-so, by all means pick the higher pay.

job2 is better becos it seems more geared on performance, and merit. despite the lower pay, i would put my faith in a company that focuses on these, becos it means the useless weak deadwood employees would not be unduly rewarded simply by hanging around doing their daily function. unfortunately many pple are keen to be in such environments, particularly if they hope to get away with performing a function only, and not exactly excelling in them.

i'm sure u know the kind of deadwood overpaid employees i'm referring to... join them only if u're one of them. else seek for better. what is 1k a mth? it's like 12k, which 3extra mths of bonus would cover. then again job2 might be more generous with increments and bonuses, whilst job1 seems more likely to makan u once u're in, since they tried to makan u before u joined n after u rejected. these type of companies u have to bang table to get a fair reward, and being singporean - u're unlikely to bang table. local pple only good at complaining but not taking action, good at suffering in silence and hoping to get away with higher pay by virtue of coming from a previously higher pay.

if u noticed, not many pple mention much abt Performance... it is one of those forgotten things, it is always assumed that pple are naturally proficient. but honestly, u should know that is not true. so if u're lousy and u know it, just go for job security. if u're good and u know u are, go for one that values performance.

the most shitty feeling when u're a performer, is to see undeserving pple get rewarded for Your hard work and never in danger of losing their job.

oh by the way, there is no harm asking job2 to commit to u an increment n promotion upon proving yourself.... if u think u can do what's needed And More, Beyond Expectations.

the key to seriously making money, instead of simply earning high salaries... is to excel and achieve beyond expectations, and not simply by asking 20% increment each time u switch jobs. sooner or later u will reach a point where u can no longer justify your high salary, and u find yourself worried abt losing your job like many highly-paid 40something have found out.

if u think it's better to have the money in hand first, think again. if u're singaporean, u're likely to find yourself upgrading and spending the money, not saving it as much. look around u, some pple never learn their lessons from those ahead of us.

good luck, there's more to think than just these 2 jobs... u need to know yourself and strategise in life, in order to comeout on top.

ps: at your age, look long term.
 

powder

Active Member
oh ya, job title... hmm, tough one. i have the same boring job title but i'm earning more than pple with better sounding titles, be it manager or gm or vp... so go-figure. at least when i go out, there's no expectation of me to pay for the meals, neither am i expected to keep up with anything or anyone.

why have your financial means - exposed via a title?
 

juergen

Member
I share the same thoughts as powder...in the end I chose job 2. Job 1's desperate move sort of make me disgusted. Come to think abt it when I ask them why they offer me 4.8k instead of my requirement of 5k in the 1st place, they give me lots of crap...but once I rejected them...they can counter offer me 5.5k...which means they can actually offer me 5k at 1st...juz that they dun wan only.
 

powder

Active Member
good on u dude... hope this starts a new chapter in your life. i guess the next step is to learn to be abit more vocal if u do well, and ask for abit more (if u're not sufficiently rewarded), but of cos know your company's books well too.

cheers!
 

tomasulu

Member
i think you're reading too much into the turn of events with job offer 1. what happened was fairly standard salary negotiation. the company won't offer you their best and final unless they had to. or perhaps that was their bafo but you impressed them enough that they were willing to stretch the offer. and even then you would've taken the original offer if you didn't have another to compare.
 

powder

Active Member
that's precisely my point, after i join them... when they dun offer me their best, i'll be in a LL state, wouldn't i be? then year after year i'll feel shortchanged. i would rather make the call early. if it was like 4.8k to 5k, i'm ok... but 4.8k to 5.5k is where i draw abit of conclusion of how much i'll be makan-ed after joining. salary isn't impt, it's the willingness to give and be fair from the offset. it's almost 15%

of cos it's part of my process of assessing the companies i would be joining. the accuracy is high, for me. not a 1-size-fits-all scenario.
 

tomasulu

Member
could be just the hr person trying to justify her existence. years ago an hr lady tried to low ball me after i had a verbal on my remuneration with the hiring manager. the diff wasn't much and the economy has tanked for a while. i was desperate so i accepted the offer without kicking a fuss. i figured the diff wasn't worth making powerful enemies in hr. the company turned out to be great so it is hard to tell from just one inauspicious episode.
 

powder

Active Member
yeah agree, good point.

didn't consider on the HR aspect given the role cos i made it a norm to only discuss remuneration with hiring bosses. due to being the frontline profit-generating person, i dun allow pple who earn less than me to determine my pay package. besides, unless they are in the industry and know your reputation and worth, such negotiations are best left with pple who know the job.

ok if it's the HR then i agree with your point. else if it's the powers that be, i'd stick to mine.
 

juergen

Member
Since I have chosen job 2, I should stick with it. Anyway, the feeling during interview was much better in job 2 than job 1. They are more sincere. Btw in job 1, the hiring mgr was a higher authority than the HR and he was the one that says 5k. It was the HR who decide to cut it down to 4.8k. I did ask why in the 1st place and HR told me that they had the final say...kinda very yaya attitude. She was shocked when I called up the next day and turned down their offer. That's when they start to panic as they know they are losing me. 5.5k was juz a figure that I anyhow pluck from the air when HR ask me what can they do to counter offer. I was wondering what if I say 6k, will they really offer me that also? Hahaha.
 

powder

Active Member
tat's the problem with some HR pple, especially when hiring certain level upwards. they may jeopardise the whole hiring process, even though they think they're trying to save money for the company... sometimes i wonder what their intentions are... and if it's for self-satisfaction and motivation.

if i do a turnaround, i'll probably include the termination of the HR in my condition to join... but that's me. it may sound harsh, but looking ahead, i will be losing good talents to competitors by virtue of a HR who may be trying hard for the wrong reasons, and cutting costs at the wrong places.
 

juergen

Member
Haha...it's really a laughing stock when they cut my initial requirement by 200 and in the end desperately throwing in an offer >500 of what I want. The starting pay already likdat...what abt long-term in terms of annual increament? I wonder are all the employees under their manipulation too? I can imagine their annual increament will be very minimum and will only give in to counteroffer when ppl resign. Somemore their last min hard-selling of their company to me makes me even more disgusted.
 

powder

Active Member
yes, that's my concern. if i am already in the company, i will be LL. or i should say most normal pple would be LL and just accept their fate.
 

miloice

Well-Known Member
I believe many company HR does that. Its about how you negotiate for your package. If you don't, many will eat you. They will have all the bullshit reasons to justify that its their standard budget for the position. At the end of the day, its how much the management value you.
 

juergen

Member
wow...their nvr-say-die attitude really impresses me. Juz now the hiring mgr called me...i tried to pick it up but somehow my hp hang...hahahaha....i guess my hp is hinting me not to care abt them.
 

powder

Active Member
her own job might be in jeopardy for trying that stint. it cost the company more to advertise and go thru the hiring process if they dun have a 2nd or 3rd choice.
 

juergen

Member
it's not the HR who called me...it's the hiring mgr...yah true...they need to go thru the hiring process again if they dun have anymore choice...someone the hiring mgr specially fly to sg to conduct the interview....hahaha
 

powder

Active Member
well see what they say then... if they are really keen. always leave the door open even if u dun intend to use it.
 

nichie

Member
. I think the way what job1 HR done is nothing to scorn off, its part and parcel of salary negotiation. You should reject it if the salary does not match up to your expectation and if they are interested in you they will counter offer, its pretty normal. Looking from another perspective, you can also said that job2 does not see a greater value in your position and how you now that they are not short-changing you? From job1, you will realise the market value of your skill and experience and you should ask yourself why job2 is paying much less. Will they also stingy/rigid on increment or promotion or salary on the next level job? On the other hand, job1 having a much higher leverage and flexibility on their offer might point to a much flexible salary increment and level internally. One thing you missed is the job1 hiring manager, he has no problem with your 5k request which show he value your skill and understand that is the market rate for you. I felt that more important is how your immediate boss view of you rather than the HR, it will be your boss who will decide on your performance, salary increment and bonus. No body will know unless you know somebody inside or you will find out only when you join.

However, from your post, you already inclined towards job2 due to job stability but from what I understand, semicon will good for the next few years due to the tremendous growth in flat tv, ipad, smart phone, cars, gaming and other electronic stuffs in Asia. The last recession is basically due to banking crisis and not so much about the decline of semicon, the crisis basically affect everybody except construction and oil n gas then. Good luck!
 

sun-sun-sun

New Member
Yes, the type of company is also important...not only MNC but it will be better if its a fortune 500 companies with multi billion revenue...no matter how high a position in local SME...your experience or value will be discounted..I have seem a SME manager when switching to a MNC, his position is a non-management one...if possible try to avoid local SME...

Hi, I am a fresh grad from uni, ready to negotiate my pay with a local SME. appx 50ppl +/-
I am poked by your post. This was a post long ago, if you are still active I hope to have suggestions from you about my decision to join the local SME firm. The firm focuses mainly on technology and manufacturing (night vision and screening).
I could have to ask for more advice but right now I just hope to know I am not making a very wrong decision.
My top priority is 'personal growth' although i don't overlook benefits and pay rates.
 

sun-sun-sun

New Member
i prefer to look at annual package versus monthly package.

Hi, I wanna ask for your advice too because your words above is very much sth I am trying to look up to. Focusing on personal value and growth than money or title. I am a local university fresh grad, currently facing 2 offers.

1) a prestigious shipyard (on site engineering position, mgt trainee program)
pay and package is standard and wont be too bad except these two years due to oil&gas retrenching.
I have not receive offer yet but i am instructed to go for med. check up so i'm temporarily assuming it's offered, to start thinking early.

2) local SME, focuses mainly on technology and manufacturing (night vision and screening).
pay rate is below mkt rate: $2600 (Mechanical Engineer Position)
bonus: no promise
AWS: currently no (I just found out that the HR didnt told me the full picture so I am meeting the hiring mnger today to clearify)
other benefits: medical $100, tender $100
leave/MC: 15 days/ 14 days.

that's all.
I am gearing up for a pay nego. today (too bad I found this forum so late)
if possible would you please enlighten me in order to tk up this offer, what should be my lower limit generally?
I am a fast learner, not a slacker at all. very independent, outgoing, outspoken, active in various fields and sports all the time in sec, poly n uni. and I am confident to start this new stage in life. I am ttly awake, not a dreaming fresh grad. but i do not wanna be driven by money fully yet not overlook it.
currently the mkt for 25 percentile is $3000.
I cant tk 2600 without nego. but i am afraid if I cant win this 'war'. btw I like the company n my prospect job scope. the company enironment is very gd, atmosphere as well (i can tell it. someone worked there in the past verified that too but he was there for part time. he could not help me on this. )
 

Top