I've chanced upon this forum during the preparation of my wedding way before my registered nick. I got married in 2004. I remember that I used to get cold feet when I read this section but my bf never failed to assure me.
Gosh, it's almost 10years and I have been reading powder, milo, sm's postings. They are not anything that u say.
Yes, they are all men but they provide very good insight on marriage. I've learnt to see things from different angles rather than dead and dull.
In fact this is my fav forum.
My frds who ended their first marriage are very happily settled down now including my own mil. They stay in a ambicable r/s with their ex and their families.
My own mil who divorced for almost 30years still went to take care and clean the house of her ex mil when granny's been diagnosed with cancer.
And hor, when things are not meant to be, they will be better off staying as friends.
My ex and I are still good friends and he's more like a big brother to me. He's a friend that I am going to keep for life.
We could still meet up for drinks and chat about everything under the sun except being together in a romantic way. I am glad that we parted way if not, I wont marry my hb.
And for Danielle's case, she is clearly a smart woman with high EQ.
It is not a overnight or impulse decision by her.
In fact, she thought long and try hard enough to salvage her marriage.
I am a strong believer that there's nothing to regret when u ever tried your best.
Her r/s with her hb is not going to end after divorce.
Both of them are mature and smart adults, very epic and spontanous people.
I believe that things will stay very much the same except that they are no longer string to each other in the name of marriage and both have the right to seek for their happiness.
tingyi, lol.. oohh.. my type of support is different lah..
i support .. by...example...
taking care of her kids when her last living parent had cancer. picking up the kid from school,bath him, fed him, do homework with him until his mom pick him up late at night.
opened up my home to provide shelter from her abusive husband while she file for divorce and try to find alternative shelter. Fend off her husband when he came looking for them in the middle of the night..
what you described as your kind of support is to me partaking in a pityfest. sure i do that a lot for my friends too.. but i really wouldn't classify that as "support" imho.
High EQ or not, kind of subjective. As pointed out, her problems at home may not just be others issues, she could have some part to play as well. Level of empathy and approach for family and friends & workplace are not the same.
Anyway, Danielle or her husband isn't going to change overnight, this is not a blaming game either.
What is clear is the incompatibility between the two. They have struggled this long to remain together. Undo the mistake that has drag this long. She is doing just that, breaking that cycle. Letting go isn't always a bad thing. Danielle is clearly independent, right or wrong choice, she can deal with it. Yes, people will be hurt, something she is well aware as well.
It is quite pointless to keep arguing and insisting on each other's conclusions about Danielle, clocking up hundreds of exchanges.
Just back n tired from a few hours of workout, shagged till the max.
It's lucky my friends r doing well in life, we hasn't reach that kinda situation to need that kinda of support **choy**
so our usual form of sisterly support is good enough
Milo, if u r here, can I ask u about few qns about fitness? I used to swim only but u say not good enough.
I think u mentioned about doing cardio to build muscles? I want to tone my abs especially around the tummy, the shape is defined but not obvious. Did a lot of pumping.
Can u advise what form of cardio is good? So far, I did bodycombat, aerobics, steps, yoga, Pilates. Should I weight lift?
I had spent one week or so in this forum, firstly telling you my story, and subsequently answering questions or clarifying my position. Thanks to those of you who had been lending me a ear. I suppose the stage is set for my next phase: ACTION TIME.
Had meant to share the following yesterday (once my med is over) but was afraid I would be torn to bits by some of you. While i was sharing here the past one week, several things had happened concurrently which troubled/are still troubling me. My hesitation to share here yesterday stemmed from this: If i am not steady, I might waiver and be tossed left and right by heehaw and etc. But I am better now. So here goes:
I brought up i wanted out about 8 days ago. Took leave that day. But went out the whole day. Of course I was very upset. Â There were numerous exchanges on whatsapp that day between hubby and me. He tried to persuade me otherwise, eventually even suggesting a separation instead. His attempts were limited to texting, since he didn't know where I went and he could only do that much to try to make me stay.Â IÂ was in tears mostly but told him no.
When I came back, there were no flowers, no nothing, unlike before. He was in the bedroom. The mood was that of resignation. It appeared that he didn't go to work either and was in bed the whole day. I went and found one of my self-help books on marriage (I had read many in the past to see how I could help my marriage) and threw on the bed and said "Read it to know why your marriage had failed." My tone was distant and contained some anger. My intention was for him to learn from his mistakes and be a better man, so the next girl he is going to hang out with wouldn't suffer like me. I have been sleeping in another room since that day. Day one.
The following day I saw him reading the book in the study room. I dismissed it as a novel but pathetic attempt to "prove" something to me. I tried on-line forums. (to be cont'd)
(cont'd)Â Several days later, I noticed he was still reading the book every night he came back from work. You've got to know my hubby. He is the here and now guy. Nothing gets to him, except finance and his career. He always made slighting jokes on people who read self-help books. I saw that he was 1/3 into the book and scribblingÂ notes on an A5 size notebook as much as half a notebook of them.Â I asked him why are you doing this. He said "to know what went wrong in my marriage, and to use some of the principles taught to apply it to our marriage." I replied him "how can you apply them to your marriage when there is only one of you in your marriage? Your spouse is leaving." He looked tearful and didn't respond.
In the past whenever I want to walk out (a total of 3 times), he will be buying flowers and all sorts of things, be extra nice, cook my favourite food and doing a lot of things for me etc, basically to please me, as well as begging and all for me to reconsider. Until I caved in. Then, he will go back to all his other priorities of his life and I am back at square one.Â
The 3rd time was when I was very close to sign the separation deed at a marital counselling session. He was like "ok ok I will see a counsellor, please don't sign" I agreed to another chance, seeing that as a breakthrough. My hubby hates going counselling sessions. He finds it very intrusive and unbearable. He will skirt around questions very skilfully till the counsellor believes him. Eg: once when we were both in session, the counsellor asked him "so how is sex life between both of you?" his reply was "Could be better." The counsellor will then move on to another question, thinking its a non-issue. Every married couple's sex life could be better, who doesn't know that? But the counsellor didn't realise we were not having ANY sex life. Technically he didn't lie about our sex life. But he was not open to tell it as it is. He is that good when he talk. High EQ? I leave it to your interpretation. One previous counsellor actually concluded that our marital problems is not due to him. Its basically me. Oh wow! Splendid job! As in my hubby has the gift of the gap! I am so darned proud of him lols!Â
Anw he did go to seek counselling once then twice, then no more. A month later I asked him he said his work was very busy. Following month, counsellor not in town. There was no significant changes in his behaviour anyway. So that sent me crying and all, and we had arguments. I don't cry often unless i really hit rock bottom. He knows that of me. So whenever the argument was bad, or I went into another crying fit, he would make an appointment to seeÂ the counsellor. This went on for several months. I didn't think I could stand it. It is like I have to reach a point till I can't stand it anymore and start to break down, then he will do something. It was a roller coaster ride which always ended up me sinking lower in my emotional well-being at each of my breaking down.
This time, i told him i don't want separation, i want divorce. His reaction is quite different.Â He did little, if anything, to please me. He didn't promised me anything. He just quietly read the book. The past one week, I avoided speaking to him to protect my mood, but occasionally he would say "This is a very good book. Why wouldn't marriage counsellors use this?". On another occasion he wanted to give me a hug but I didn't want. He insisted and said tearfully "I ...... I realised so many things I did in the past were ..... were wrong." Some what like what Antxie wrote. Tell me i wasn't moved. Hell, i was. I am sentimental, remember? In fact, he was almost always tearful for the entire week whenever I bumped into him in the kitchen or living room the past. IÂ was shaken in my resolve. But "make it I must" stayed in my head. (To be cont'd)
(cont'd)Â If I cave in now, andÂ think okay there is hope he is really beginning to look at his problems, then, being a huge procrastinator that he is on such matters, there is a high possibility he will put the book aside and do his outstanding bills and all sorts of other urgent things and soon everything between me and him will return to square one. As it is, his bills are all stacking up now and he is giving all priorities to read this book. Imagine if i say okay i am willing to give it another chance. My mind's eyes can visualise him hurriedly attending to his other very urgent concerns. Of course I may be wrong too. But the agreement to see counsellor previously: wasn't that a breakthrough too? But what came out of it except more heartbreaks for me? I was getting very troubled. I can't believe I am even considering caving in less that ONE WEEK! I mentioned earlier that I am weaker this time than before. Reason was I had a depression to fight against. Granted that yes I wasn't feeling depressed anymore, but there is a chance I will sabotage my own recovery if I am not careful.
I saw my counsellor twice last week. She thinks we have hope to reconcile because she thinks he might be sincere this time. But I told her the reason why he might be sincere this time is because i told him I am divorcing him. No more hope for him. No more time to play. No second chance. That's why he is sincere now.Â
So it follows that i should stick to my word and file for divorce right? If i cave in now, it will spell doom from every angle. By leaving, it will pain him so much he will re-prioritise his life? But if I do so, the reason cannot be because I am hoping he will wake up and engage me (engage as in interact) Because there is a chance he won't? If I leave, I must leave with no hopes of reconciliation, am I right? I do still love him very much.
My counsellor thinks I might want to do a separation first. I told her I don't know if a separation is going to work for him. It will means he still got hope. He still can have a chance. What is the wager that he will not squander it yet again?
So I shouldn't do separation either. Cos separation is several years. And he will think he has some years to work on it - so there will be time, so he will procrastinate again and I may wait in vain?
Basically I came to realise that no amount of me talking to him while I am in the marriage is going to help my marriage. The most powerful tool I can use on him is to leave the marriage. Suddenly he wakes up. Then it follows that to save my marriage, I must leave first. Do I sound insane, like what heehaw claim i am lol? (to be cont'd)
(cont'd)Â I mentioned early post that my first choice is to stay in my marriage, if there is one to begin with. I value my word, or my vows. To protect my marriage, I had cut off all my male friendships. I don't know how to hang out with girls (Btw i am not les. I am 100% heterosexual female) So effectively I cut off my whole social network for YEARS. Hence my deep sense of isolation outside my marriage, per-disposing me to afflictions such as loneliness and depression.Â
Everyday, i return to my home and find my hubby distant and basically taking me for granted and fail to engage me in our marriage life. This whole home is a huge cave that he recline and seek solace from the daily stress from life. This is a place where he drops his jokes and facades among outsiders, and achieve silence and peace and to be the real him.Â The fact that there are other living beings, such as a spouse, in the same cave is ignorable and irrelevant to him. I live my life and he lives his.Â
What kind of marriage is this? As I had mentioned earlier, in business sense, a marriage is a partnership. In a business partnership, people registers a business entity, have some common goals, take up different positions in the partnership, one may do finance, admin and IT network interface, the other focus on business development and marketing, but both work together towards the success of the partnership. To me, my marriage is a co-tenancy of 2 different and unrelated businesses sharing the same company premises. Much like those shops where half is selling daily provision, the other half rented to someone else selling hand phone covers and spare phones. No interaction. You mind your own business, I mind mine. Don't cross the line. Synergy (business jargon) in my marriage: Huh? What's that?
Yesterday night, I had a talk with him about assets settlement. He is either in denial or whatever. He still thinks we can work it out. He said he wants to finish the book, he is 2/3 through and by next Thur or so, he should be done and he wants to discuss what went wrong in our marriage. I said its too late to talk about that now. I want to discuss assets settlement. He was still going on about other options. So, I said fine! We can discuss what you want next Thur. But you must give me a workable alternative for me, filing which I am filing. He dodged my last sentence smoothly. He said lets discuss the issues first, then talk about options, k?
Frankly, I see no option opened for me. He is just kidding himself. But I had agreed to next Thur and i will keep my word. We shall see.
And this stage of my sharing is not seeking your understanding, like before.
I am now opened to feedback and any comments. I am 99.9% sure nothing is coming out of next Thursday's discussion. But if anyone can give me constructive feedback will be good.
Heehaw, stay out of this. I am not reading your posts anyway. Scope Guy, you can save your time typing. I have never ever read more than ... wad ... 2 posts from you. I don't waste my time on people like you both.
"No amount of "moral support" (from strangers no less) would do for you what 20 years of misery won't."
You won't believe this, but this forum has done a lot for me the whole of last week. I think I pretty much needed to unload my story and I felt better after that, since my own social circle doesn't understand.Â And to have people, men and women, married or divorced, understanding what issues I am facing meant the world to me.Â To me, seeing a counsellor is a poor substitute for network and support. The very person I talked to (the counsellor) may nod in empathy and give feedback or advice but she is paid to do so. I can't count her as my social network. At the very most, just paid professional advice.
Here, though most of you are anonymous and using pseudonyms, you are real people living real lives, and your responses are real from your very own wealth of experiences.Â A beautiful mosaic of different outlooks and different approaches to life as a whole. You are not paid to contribute to this forum. All your responses have been heart-touching, except for ...... nvm.Â And some words uttered here have been a rope that I desperately cling onto for survival last week.Â So, yeah, this is what i mean by MORAL SUPPORT. Though we might never ever meet in real life, but I did get what I want from here, so far. Thank you, my friends.
What I got from your narrative D, is someone very much hoping that the marriage would still work. And I'm not talking about your husband. At the risk of braying like donkey, I just want to ask if you felt you have done all you could to get him out of his emotion cocoon? I hate to do this when you've said all along you needed support for a divorce. I am not judging, I know that emotional desertion is as bad if not worse than a physical one. However, given that it's clearly a difficult decision, it won't hurt to be absolutely sure of where you stand before proceeding.
Thank you. I have done all I could to get him out of his emotional cocoon. But have failed so thoroughly. Now I am hopeless and have decided to leave. Then he sticks a bit of his head out of the cocoon. What the ......?!
I didn't know how to post this here initially. Imagine typing 114 posts for one entire week, then now this. It is like a complete joke.
But I am seriously doubtful this spells any hope for my current marriage.
I am opened to this:
- Dissolve my current marriage
- He wants to discuss further with me about how to improve himself (that was something he said as well as last night) whether marriage is over or not. Fine! I can help you do that.
- I am open to keeping him as friend
- if ever, in some distance future, chance allows and provided ALL critical issues he is having now are resolved, I do not rule out the option of dating him again. But this is highly unlikely, such handicaps takes YEARS to undo, and I won't be waiting for him to arrive.
- I will be free to happy, swinging single and all
- if there is another person in the horizon somewhere suitable, it is something for me to consider another day
At the moment, this is how I look at my situation.
Yet, Thursday's meet might shake my resolve. I don't know what tricks if any he has up his sleeves.
I realise I seriously dunno what I am talking about.
My last post was just crap. Can someone help me out here? My preferred lifestyle is singlehood. Why the hell did I say that I am opened to dating him again?????
And to 'balance it up', I actually added "if ever there is another person in the horizon somewhere suitable, it is something for me to consider another day" WTH!!!! NO, HELL NO!!! I AM NOT OPENED TO HAVING ANOTHER MARRIAGE!!!
Okay, okay, I am losing my cool.
Seriously, this is why my brain short-circuits itself where this man is concerned. Damned!!!
"What I got from your narrative D, is someone very much hoping that the marriage would still work."
- Yes, I HONESTLY do hope it would.
"At the risk of braying like donkey, I just want to ask if you felt you have done all you could to get him out of his emotion cocoon?"
- While remaining married to him, I would say I have done all I could.
"I know that emotional desertion is as bad if not worse than a physical one."
- Thank you. You understand my predicament very well indeed. From my point of view, I rather be alone, then feel lonely while being with someone.
"However, given that it's clearly a difficult decision, it won't hurt to be absolutely sure of where you stand before proceeding."
- Yes, it won't.
I see myself in a position where i need to do something about my marriage. It is too hard for me to carry on like I have always done. I have to either go for divorce or separation or someway to dissolve the marriage. (to be cont'd)
(cont'd)Â I have my doubts about separation. For my husband's ways of managing his emotions and relating with people, I am afraid it is not going to be as simple as crawling out of his cocoon. I am afraid his is so deeply entrenched that he would need professional help, plus a huge determination on his part to get better.Â
(Just for reference, 2 nights ago, he met up with two of his good friends for dinner. It was a pre-arrangement which he had postponed several times and he felt obliged to go. Last night, I asked him how it went. He said it was fine. I was expecting him to say something to the effect that he told them about his impending divorce and so-and-so said this or that. I asked so you told them? He said no. Apparently,Â they were talking about cars and other stuff.Â How I look at it is that, he is going through a marital crisis, his wife told him she is filing, he is clearly shaken, he has been reading the self-help book to the point of neglecting all his bills and stocks and all, yet he wouldn't breathe a word to his two friends when he met them right in the middle of this crisis. They were friends of almost 20 years. From army days.
When I asked him "Why didn't you tell them? You are not going to go through a divorce without anyone knowing, are you?" He didn't reply. Then a while later, he told me that our counsellor once told him "you shouldn't share personal things with just anyone." I asked him "yes with just anyone, but will you be sharing with anyone at all?" He answered something vague. How I look at it is that,Â he is either reading out of context or attempting to justify his actions. Most likely the latter. It is true we need to be careful who we share very personal things with, lest others might use them against us (eg: at the workplace) or ridicule us (eg: with someone who is over-critical or controlling or overbearing) or other good reasons. But these 2 guys I know them, they are none of the above)
I mention the above to explain his pattern of relating with others. He is not aware how closed up he is, but when pointed out he would answer it like that. And I think he seriously believe he is doing the right thing. It is very deeply entrenched, wrapped up in thick layers of self-denial, justifications, and an unwillingness to look at things outside his own vantage point. I was once told by my counsellor I might be the only person to help him, seeing that no one really knows him or can help him, and I know him in ways no one does because i live with him. I tried, it hurts our marriage further and i didn't want to continue. I'd rather we worked it out through a counsellor. The danger of a spouse playing counsellor in such a situation is that over time, we don't see each other as equals, he lost his "privacy" something he guards very jealously, and may resent me for being intrusive. I might even come across as "all-knowing" and that hurt the marriage. (To be cont'd)
(cont'd) And even with a huge determination to overcome all these obstacles, it will take YEARS to unlearn deeply imbedded attitudes and habits in emotional awareness and relational habits. Plus, it is an ongoing processes, not a one-off thing, to beÂ always mindful not to slip back into past patterns of denial, avoidance, and justifications, but to learn to be extremely honest with himself, be in touch with his feelings and how to relate with others in a honest, respectful and loving way.Â It probably would also means soul searching about his past and forgiving those who had hurt him. All these he would need professional help or some form of support group.
I don't see any miraculous cure for this. It is going to be a long drawn out process, and I am afraid i can't walk this journey with him. I have reached a point I simply can't go on trying anymore. Even with his recent 'realiszation' of some of his faults, it was still so frustrating to me talking to him on Saturday night. There were other things discussed as well, and I shan't bore all with unnecessary details. And similar patterns kept surfacing, as always.
If this is a sneak peak into what it is like, after he 'realised' through the book, then the journey ahead is still going to be very rough. I had been thinking about what you said last night, Tomas, and I think, much as I love this man so much, I am throwing in the towel. I am so sorry, my love, I can't be there for you anymore. You just have to go figure how to help yourself.
So yeah, I am going ahead. Just that I promised to hear him out this Thursday. I would, since I have given my word. Just that i am not a heartless person and interactions with him are always mingled with love, hurt and pain. I hope I survive. I hope my logic will survive.
Thanks Tomas, didn't know you can do this for me. Thanks.
when i was based in bangkok, many of my farang coworkers hooked up with local chicks. some divorced their wives to be with village/low level office girls whom they have little in common with. my farang boss then - a funny and intellectual guy - would have done the same if not for his love for the kids. many will blame it on the pretty young thing factor (or conversely, the 300lb lard wife syndrome) but it is not entirely it. it's bangkok after all and you don't have to bring home a cow if you just want milk. what the boss said was food for thought - for a marriage to work, you don't have to share the same hatred for socialism, enjoy the same humor or even speak the same language. life is short, keeping things simple and superficial can be less of a headache. leave the intellectual debates to your drink buddies. go home to someone who will serve you a bowl of tom ga gai for your hangover. someone who doesn't feel the need to tire you with her own existential crisis and women lib's expectations.
i suspect this is how many folks view a marriage. if you observe most married couples, especially those who are older, their interactions are typically superficial and mundane. hows the kids, what shall we have for dinner, etc. fact sharing, in your own words, which to many people are a-ok. that's why you don't get a lot of sympathy or understanding from your circle of friends. keeping in mind your husband's stunted capacity for empathy, you may want to explore his view on relationships in general and marriages in particular.
trying to be clear... what i was trying to say is that your husband's reluctance or inability to change could be exacerbated by his view on relationships and marriage. there are chinese phases such as ç›¸æ•¬å¦‚å®¾ and å›åä¹‹äº¤æ·¡å¦‚æ°´ that extol the kind of superficial mundane existence that characterizes your marriage.
letting go might not be a bad thing. Changes trig sense of urgency and need for reflection.
My relationship went through a break up to become stronger. For me to reflect over my mistakes and for her to grow up and understand what were her priorities. But, for sure, context is not the same. The point is.... letting go can work either ways, sometimes it could turn out completely opposite as well.
This is not to give any false hopes. Change will happen now that you have taken the step to do it.
Why are there so few people commenting ? As much as I would like to give you a clear-cut answer Danielle, I donâ€™t have one.
If you decide again to let him have another chance, you could mitigate the contrast between your and his traits by learning to be apathetic to his non-reactions. But how to do it without frustrating yourself ?
â€œIf this is a sneak peak into what it is like, after he 'realised' through the book, then the journey ahead is still going to be very rough.â€
-Best if he gets an epiphany -wonâ€™t happen.
think toma n milo made decent points to ponder on... time is the much-needed commodity at this stage, i dun really have anything thought-provoking to add, and what i have to say is really hard to emote without misunderstanding occuring...
I was looking back, scrolling the whole thread and was reading every post since I first posted here, including heehaw's recent ones too, though I said I won't be looking, but all the replies of others kinda are related to her postings so .....Â
Dear Ting Yi,Â
Thank you for your lovely posts yesterday and today to you-know-who aka heehaw.
You are very sweet. In the past, when scope guy said I don't love my hubby, you posted to say I do.Â When heehaw said he is sleeping around, you posted to say he is faithful. I didn't know cos I wasn't reading their posts till just now.Â Thank you, Ting Yi.
momoftwo does not reside locally. Her time clock indicates she is 16 hours behind SG time, so she is probably residing in some part of the Western coast of the American continents. She should be waking up anytime soon.
Your stories about your friends and your mil encouraged me (your post yesterday) And how yourÂ own mil who divorced for almost 30years still went to take care and clean the house of her ex mil when granny's been diagnosed with cancer. I intend to do the same. My mil is old and sickly and likes me. My hubby and i do not intend to break news to her at all.
As for the part where you said I have high EQ, I am afraid I cannot agree. If my EQ is not so low, I would have packed my bag and left long ago.Â
I took your advice when you said this morning that the best way is to move out. Hence my search for a place begins.Â
Do you remember last Wed you posted this: "U go, gal Â maybe ur decision could have made ur hb to sit up n do something for himself too.Â Who noes things might take an unexpected twist." I was in the middle of seeing him reading the self-help book but I did not want to comment on your post just yet. Now, I think its too little too late on his part. I have finally crashed into a depression lasting 2-3 weeks. The last thing I want in my future is a repeat of the crescendos in a emotional roller coaster, the ebbs and flowsÂ of heart-wrenching brokenheartedness, and possible recurring crashes of depressions, every each time I interact with him or with his 'not being there'.