COMPASS license for photo montage?

cc03

New Member
Hi! would appreciate if you could share your experience regarding the above, esp if you're recently/ soon to be married, eg how it has affected you; or has anyone written to COMPASS for clarification and gotten a response? Very upset about how this issue has been suddenly thrown up, it's not like we don't face enough problems actually finding a spouse and getting hitched and setting up a family in Singapore! and a wedding's supposed to be a private event anyway, not some public concert! the COMPASS website doesn't say anything about who it represents and where exactly the license costs goes to.. guess i'm just feeling upset, so would appreciate if i could hear your thoughts on the matter too. Thanks!
 


angjanice

Member
this is very true you know..called them up a couple of weeks ago and i was transferred to 3 of their staff when I asked how much are we newly weds supposed to pay if we are to incorporate music in our montages. the last person told me that she is not sure and she'll have to get back to me on this. she took my number down but never got back to me ever since. sick lor..sianz..anyone else has an experience to share too?
 

natalie_nat_nat

New Member
i called them up as well and was told to send email to a melvin tan at compass. No reply. Then i had to call them and was transferred once. A lady picked up the calls but was unable to answer my questions. Then another guy took my call. He said that they are more concerned about putting montages on web. And when i asked if the song i am using "Collide" is going to be affected, he said they don't represent the recording company and label. I have to email the recording company & label, which are in States. So i asked what labels they represent, and they said mostly local artistes. This is really weird because how many of us actually use local songs?? And I asked point blank if they were going to gatecrash my wedding dinner and fine me on the spot. He just laughed a little and then went back to the point that they are concerned about putting montages on the web. It's fishy! There are no guidelines at all and so uncertain. I ended up just using whatever i had planned to use and nothing happened.
 

luvuawz

New Member
Hi all,

From what i understand, there is no stated clear penalty to be incurred upon being caught, moreover COMPASS hardly ever conduct raids on wedding. So long you guys prepare a orignal cd along with ur montage (with the musics), i believe it should be fine. I am going to do the same thing, im just gonna play the musics i like along with my video. If you are really afraid of the copyright, maybe you should choose some songs that are not mandarin or represented locally. I guess that is the safest.
 

cc03

New Member
Thanks for sharing. Seems like they're not being very upfront or coordinated in the answers. I've heard that some weddings do get 'gatecrashed', albeit subtley.. apparently the rep approaches the couple afterwards to enquire if they have licenses for the songs used. no word on what happened afterward though.
luvuawz's suggestion sounds good, just play songs that you have the original CD for. But then what if the song was a specially-recorded acoustic version for a show??
 

angjanice

Member
actually the main reason that these authorities are after us must be because they do not want us to use the songs for commercial purposes. that means if we are using it for profit-making, then it is wrong. but we are only using it for our wedding mah..where is the "profit-making" in this? our ang baos?? quite ridiculous la if they really come pestering us..

oh ya one of the videographers i've met told me to call 68-22-22-68 for the news to report a story on their actions so that the rest of us can be warned and the whole of SG will know what exactly they are doing..hehe..sounds cool to me.. :p
 

blinky03

New Member
I heard from my PG that COMPASS is targetting their action against people who profit from the music like PGs and VGs who earn by incorporating music into their works. As they say, they earn, others also want to earn. :p
 

jrimagexpress

New Member
Any song that is belong to the 14 labels company group (eg. Sony music / Warner music / Universal music / EQ music...etc) including all the cd you can find on the shelf in cd shop are copyright and cannot be use for photo montage and express highlight without paying any license from RIPS & MPS while the Compass will catch those who post online in Youtube / blog / Vimeo etc...

Hope it clear all doubts here.
 

jrimagexpress

New Member
oh yes...one more thing to mention, anyone bought the cd or song legally does not give the person the right to play during the dinner.
 

rueyloon

Member
Hello

hi, I attended the talk conducted last week on music copyright.

There here a a few classes of licenses and also a few licensing bodies to work with. They are going to charge (of course !) But they have not come up with how much and how they are going to charge. They will be coming back to us in around 3 weeks time.

Here is the summary

Playing music or montage with music at the hotel ballroom - The hotel will need a license from COMPASS for "public performance".

Playing music or montage with music online - The videographer will need a license from RIPS (representing the music labels) and also a license from COMPASS (representing the song writers)

Making a montage with music in the background - The videographer will need a license from RIPS and also MPS (Music publishers).

In Summary, we have 3 licensing bodies
1) RIPS
2) COMPASS
3) MPS

and also 3 different types of license

1) Public Performance
2) Web
3) Synchronization (creating a video montage with music)

We are trying to ask for single use charges, so we shall wait and see.

Cheers
rgs
rueyloon
http://www.36frames.com
 

sdluvct

New Member
If hotels are already paying for playing of music in the background... why do we still have to apply a permit for it!! Btw, it cost $50... To me they are like double charging us!! It's crap...

And it's so unfair to us... Hope someone would consolidate a list of music that are foc so that we can use it in our montage...
happy.gif
 

sdluvct

New Member
Hi Eugene,

I am not talking about montage...

I saw this in the Compass webby under Permit for Wedding Functions:
$50 a day if only background cd music is provided (i.e. no live band or karaoke)

I understand that hotels are already paying licences for the background music. Its a double charging if we apply for the permit and simply like wanting to "eat" our $$.. haha

I guess now hotels personnel have to be trained to multi-task... click on montage + playing music (in sync)... this is free right? =P
 

kenrach

New Member
Does anybody knows then what about live band?

If we engaged a live band, does the bride and groom have to get additional licence? or pay on a per song basis?

Can really go broke likt that -_-
 

psying

New Member
hey pple...

i got a question then..
if let say i do my own montage and embedded 3 different songs to the montage..one song after another...(not full song..certain part the song will fade off)

i guess its not allowed? need license?
 
Hi PSY,

It's even more serious if you try to use 3 songs with only certain parts as compared to using 1 complete song. If caught, the fine could be higher!

Rgds
Louis Sim
DreamBox Media
 

rubypumps

New Member
which 14 labels company?

what about Indie music? i don't think they have a right to charge us if we are using Indie music, since they've not joined to become member of COMPASS and will not be receiving any royalties from COMPASS, in this case do we still have to pay?

anyway, hotels are still telling couples that they can use their own songs. and does COMPASS people have a right to raid private events?
 

rueyloon

Member
Ken's wife
- they didn't address this during the talk, but if it follows roughly what they are subjecting us to, it should be covered by COMPASS for public performance and the hotel should be paying for this license.

PSY
- the act of embedding the song required a license.

Rubypumps
- you can check the website to see who they represent.

http://www.rips.com.sg/
http://www.mps.org.sg/
http://www.compass.org.sg/

- if you are using indie music represented by indie labels it is still wrong, but they probably don't have a body like the above to help them chase for payments and also to reinforce their copyrights. There are some self published CDs on the net that photographers have successfully gotten permission to use their songs by just asking them nicely.

- according to what was discussed in the talk. As long as you have the proper CD, you can play it at the hotel as it is the hotel's responsibility to get a license from COMPASS.

Hope this helps

rgs
rueyloon
36frames Wedding Photography & Videography
36frames Photo Video Blog
 

yoshino

New Member
can i ask if the $50 is inclusive of all the background songs and also montage songs? my PG told me it's $50 per song?? is that crazy or what? I could not find more info in COMPASS website...
 

angjanice

Member
hmm..dun think it is this cheap wor..and i heard from my vg who had bought the license from the relevant associations that there is no per-song charge so far. where did ur pg get that rate from? is it his own?
happy.gif
my vg said per license is a hefty 2k.. :S
 

rubypumps

New Member
ya, the compass website doesn't provide adequate information.

in this case, do we apply license ourselves or VG will apply for us, and how do we ensure that VGs are not exploiting this chance to charge us way higher than we should pay?

this piece of news came out in January, i signed with my VG in March and he didn't mention any COMPASS charges, is it fair that he charge me additional now for his ignorance in the industry that he's in?

and if we use Indie music, should we be paying for anything? compass is authorized by its members to collect fees, but independent artists are not with them what.

i emailed compass but no reply from them >(
 

jrimagexpress

New Member
Hi Yoshino,
We never heard of $50 fee...if it is so cheap, we will absorb the cost easily.

Hi Janice,
If your VG bought $2k from RIPS start the act Jan 2010, it is still not enough as based on what we heard in the late Mar conference, the MPS announce they will charging up to $2k in order to play the copyright music embedded in your highlight safely. (We are still waiting for their new fee or take our suggestion by charging per event at a smaller amount).

Hi Ruby,
To solve your issue, don't use copyright song. Just for your info, Indie music is not in the 14 labels. There are a lot of other music/songs not under the 14 labels as well.

MPS & RIPS are apply to VG to use copyright music/song in their videowork for public viewing on that night only . Do note that the Compass will sue the couple if they want to share their highlight video (even though the VG have bought all the lic up to $6k from RIPS/MPS/Compass) in the youtube / vimeo / blog…etc with copyright music/song embedded in the video.

Other facts to share,
Actually, the Compass lic is meant for hotel to apply for the right to play any copyright songs in their premise but in the Conference, we were told that the VG who post their work in their website need to apply this lic as well…seem like the compass are keen to recover their loss like RIPS/MPS on their 14 labels…this was what they had mentioned that night.

Hope everyone is clear now.

Cheers!
John Tan
JR Imagexpress Productions (since 1994)
www.jrimagexpress.com
 

jrimagexpress

New Member
Conclusion, if use copyright free music/song in highlights/montages, all issue will be gone...can post & share freely forever in vimeo / blog / youtube with your friends and relative.

Cheers!
John Tan
JR Imagexpress Productions (since 1994)
www.jrimagexpress.com
 

estherlim

New Member
Hi John Tan,

Could u advise me on whether once license is bought, we can use any copyrights songs or the license is based on per song basis? The amount of estimated $2k is just like TV license that we have to pay only yearly right? second query, is it a must to get the 3 different licenses in a go? Appreciates your kind advise, thank you
 

jrimagexpress

New Member
Hi Esther,

Yes, yearly licenses are the only choice right now...we are still waiting for per song basic but no guarantee they will listen to our suggestions.

Please email us, we can give some tips and advise to save cost on this issue if you are keen.

Cheers!
John Tan
JR Imagexpress Productions (since 1994)
www.jrimagexpress.com

Email: [email protected]
 

two_piece

Member
Sorry if i sound dumb, or missed out any details discussed... but i'm wondering, the authorities are targetting at those who use the music/songs/watever for commercial/profit making services right? Then how come for couples still need to pay if they just want to share their montage, which is non-profitable/non-commercial, online??? not fair rite...
 

jrimagexpress

New Member
Hi 2 piece,

This questions was raised the moment RIPS mentioned it during that night but they just keen to recover their loss...I do feel sorry for couples having their wedding from next month onwards...

The RIPS did advised to prevent being sue, don't use copyright song without lic ($2000 to compass annually for online purpose) seperately in Singapore...
 

kenrach

New Member
I have checked with my hotel. They say that I need not worry about paying extra or issues regarding the license. The hotel has paid a blanket license. There is also no problem if I want a live band in the ballroom.
 

pino69

New Member
Hi, anyone know what is the latest news apart from the last meeting by Compass/Rips with VG/PG?

Last message from rueyloon, they will revert in 3 weeks time, hope i am not missing anything, thanks for any update on this.
 

alvin_lee

Member
Two piece,
the issue is not about profit or non-profit. It is about getting permission from the content-creators to use their creations. If a couple contact the recording company, the composer and the lyricist for permission, they may give you the permission to use the music for free, or send you a quote. We all know that this is not practical as it will take months, but in reality, this is the practice in the music industry.

And when one buys a music CD, one merely buys the right to enjoy the songs on a personal basis (not for enjoyment by your friends or relatives at a hotel, nor used as an ingredient for making a montage). Do read the terms of usage on the CD cover. Going beyond those terms will be a violation of the agreement between the buyer of the CD and the recording company.

I have gotten myself the RIPS licence since April 2010 to operate 100% legal and am still awaiting for all other licences that may come up. Nothing heard yet. Whether couples who have already signed up videography packages will be billed extra by the videographer, is purely up to the videographer. If a videographer has sufficient volume to spread out the cost, he/she may absorb.

However, do expect prices for wedding videography packages to increase across the board in the near future to cover this new business cost.

One interesting thing to note is that our overseas wedding videographer friends (in US and Canada) are not bothered by such strict enforcement of music licensing. Much less to say DIY montages by the wedding couples.

And we heard that some hotels have started asking for couples/videographers to produce the RIPS licence before the hotel plays any music/video. Here's the cut-and-paste from an email by one such hotels,


"Greetings From Hilton Singapore !
Please be advised that current legislation in Singapore requires the wedding client or their videographer/AV supplier to obtain all necessary music copyright permits/licenses in order to play their selected music/songs at the wedding ceremony.

This requirement is imposed by the authorities and hence the hotel is required to abide by this legislation.

Accordingly, the hotel will require the client or their videographer/AV supplier to provide and furnish the necessary permits/licenses before any of the client's or their videographer/AV supplier's music/songs are broadcasted at the hotel.

Failure to provide the necessary permits/licenses will result in the hotel refusing to broadcast the client's or their videographer/AV supplier's prepared music/songs.

We regret any inconvenience caused

Thank you.

Regards

XXX Wee
Catering Sales Manager
Hilton Singapore"

Although we have yet to meet a banquet manager who requests to see our licence, we forsee that ignorant banquet managers will still request for the licence even for broadcasting of music within their premises (i.e. licence which all respectable hotels has already paid for). The worst scenario is when royalty-free music is used in montages and yet an ignorant manager still requests for a licence... This will be very unfair to couples/videographers who puts in the extra effort not to use copyrighted music.

PS: RIPS, MPS and Compass are not "authorities" They are merely Pte Ltd companies who are collecting money on the behalf of recording companies, composers and lyricists. Their basis of collection is supported by the Singapore Copyright Act.
All respectable hotels have applied for annual broadcast licence to broadcast copyrighted music within their premises. Hence wedding couples can play ANY music they want at their banquet (as long as there is no video/photo synchronised to it), and the hotel is NOT breaking any law. It is the personal responsibility of the videographers/couples to acquire the necessary licence for use of music synchronised to their montages.
 
This is so sad to hear. I'm planning to DIY my my photo montage, thinking of embedding a few songs in it, but looks like i can no longer have such an effect. Haiiz, i think this also apply to dance performance team who like to join music together for their dance performance on stage. Our lifestyle is having such big impact nowadays, paying here and there, now to be creative?
 

haveabreak

New Member
Fwah... usage of music also have to pay...
Does this apply to songs used during funerals???
Some people do make montage in memory of the dead....
S'pore is such a FINE country...
 

renerene

New Member
I emailed to COMPASS, MPS & RIPS to enquire how to apply for the license for diy wedding montage. RIPS replied very promptly telling me that the details are not finalised yet and will be out shortly. I asked for an indicative time frame for the details to be out but gotten no reply. My wedding is coming up soon. So, I'm going to be penalised because they haven't ironed out the details and there is no way I can apply for the license?
 

cc03

New Member
LOL since you've already done your part in trying to conform to their regulations, screw them! I would love to tell them (if they turn up) that THEY are trespassing my private event. I understand the part about protecting artists and musicians, or if I were a company holding a public event that used that song as the theme song then yes, by all means call for a license; but to come right down to individuals who just want to celebrate their big day is ridiculous.
 

kenrach

New Member
cc03, I agree with you totally.

However, just to be really safe, I will mute my photo montage video. And use another device to play the music.

That means to say, on the screen is just images/photos/animation and music will come in by the speakers. So I am playing two things at the same time.

My photographers and videographers have agreed that think that this is the best solution.
 

two_piece

Member
"And when one buys a music CD, one merely buys the right to enjoy the songs on a personal basis "

wa... then i'm wondering, if i'm a taxi driver, i play music in the taxi while fetching customers, so i'm supposed to buy license for that? and say if i'm having bbq at east coast, and i'm playing music with portable player, everyone can hear the songs, and i have to pay for license?

omg... if the above is true, i think tat's really ridiculous leh...
sad.gif
 

alvin_lee

Member
Two piece, technically speaking, the taxi driver will have to pay, as well as when you broadcast music at you bbq. Even the hawker who blasts his music CD at his stall will have to pay too. There is a Public Performance licence (under Compass's purview), which event organizers will have to apply for outdoor events should copyrighted music be aired. But realistically, no one will police all the minor occurrences by the general public. It will be too expensive for them to employ ppe to hide behind the bush next to your bbq pit... we are talking about catching the entire SG population! Lol....

These agencies will usually take action if anyone complains, or if Sony Music, Warner, etc, wants to take legal action upon the knowledge of loss of substantial opportunity income.
 

meiguan

New Member
Extracted from http://jeremiahjacobs.blogspot.com/2007/09/wedding-videography-and-copyright-law.html

Q: As a wedding video producer, do I have any exposure to potential copyright claims?

A: It depends on your business model.

Generally speaking, weddings are private events; they are not open to the public. Because they're private, infringement claims are generally dismissed. When a person purchases a compact disc recording, they're (usually) granted a license that reads: "Licensed for private, non commercial use." or a similar language. That's the license that allows someone to use a Tim McGraw song during their wedding.

If your business model involves simply recording the event, editing, and delivering a shiny disc product to the bride and groom, a videographer is covered the bride and groom's license. That is to say, you are specifically licensed to use that material in any your clients see fit, providing it remains private and non-commercial.

Q: I was paid to produce the video - doesn't that make it "commercial?"

A: No. Your recording and subsequent editing of the private event does not constitute a "derivative work", nor is your being paid in any way related to the copyrighted material. That you have been hired by the licensee simply means you're "for hire" and generally indemnified against a copyright claim. This legal structure varies between states, so make sure to TALK TO YOUR ATTORNEY TO MAKE SURE THIS APPLIES TO YOUR BUSINESS.

Q: Doesn't "Fair Use" cover me in these situations?

A: No - "Fair Use" does not apply. Fair Use is a special class of exemptions from infringement claims. As you're already licensed to use the music via the purchase of the CD or "for hire" status, "Fair Use" is not required.

Q: Under what circumstances would I have to obtain licensing?

A: Imagine you're product includes a short piece highlighting the bride and groom's first meeting - a kind of retrospective. You decide to include television clips ("When Dick and Jane first met 6 years ago, THIS is what was on TV...") or other copyrighted material IN ADDITION to what was recorded during the private ceremony, they you'll certainly need a license, as you're essentially reselling those clips.

Another scenario would be if you intended the wedding video to be released publicly - resold in stores (who'd buy it!?!?) or broadcast on a public network. In those cases, a videographer would absolutely have to obtain coverage (most likely via an agency like Harry Fox).

One probable scenario is having a portion of your wedding video featured on television, ala America's Funniest Home Videos (or Bridezilla and it's ilk). In a case like that, the broadcast company (ABC) would usually go about obtaining the license (if they don't already have blanket coverage). Even in that scenario, however, the burden of license does not fall on the videographer.
--------------------------------

My point of view as a freelance VG:

I totally agree on the article, hence I will not support and buy the license at all.

We can use public domain or royalty-free songs. You may want to know more about songs licensed under Creative Commons License. There is a representative in SG. Google their site!

Lastly... "If you hold tightly to your creative works, they become impossible to share. If your art isn't experienced by people, it serves no purpose in society. " - Kevin MacLeod
 

meiguan

New Member
I contacted Zee Avi's Management. They allow the couple to use Zee Avi song as long as it's non-profit.

Here's the email:

We are the website managers for Zee Avi. If you are using her song for a video that is not being sold or otherwise used to receive payment, you have full permission to do so. You are NOT allowed to use any Zee Avi music if you are selling the video.

So if it is for NON PROFIT use, you are more than welcome to use her songs.


Oniracom Support Center
[email protected]
Solutions for Dreamers
http://www.oniracom.com
 

michecwy

New Member
erm, i dont really understand this rule as well.. My HTB had doneup a montage with a song.

And i saw someone mentioned that we will have to find copyright free songs? I tot all songs do have copyrights? hmm.. not this case ah?

And my ques is, ifwe were to only use hotel's songs whereby they buy the license, den won't all the couple wedding in that hotel have all the same songs playing?

Pls correct me if im wrong..
 

blinky03

New Member
I also think so. So confusing compared to my time when they weren't enforcing it so strictly for my wedding. I can't even give advice to my friends with so little info from the authorities.
 

meiguan

New Member
Hi Michelle,

Regardless of the person is wedding couple or professionals, so long the montage is done on a copyrighted song, you have to get license from RIPS , COMPASS and MPS.

Some PG/VG companies have applied annual license. In that case the wedding couple does not need to apply anything. But some PG/VG do not have the license especially for freelancer as it is costly.
Wedding couple may apply if that is the case. Visit RIPS & COMPASS website for the application form. Apply at least 2 - 3 weeks before your wedding.


I have shared the info here in this thread: http://www.singaporebrides.com/cgi-bin/forumboard/show.cgi?7/1389608

Hope this info helps
happy.gif
 


smilem

New Member
may i asked.. if i applied this for the freelencer so tat he can used for the express highlight.. does it means when i also do my personnal montage i can also play the music?

Does it means i can download songs from internet and use it? and i dun nit to show the hotel the original CD Album?
 

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