Air-con

[nicgrace]

Hi Ridz,
I'm impressed by your knowledge on aircon stuff. Hope you could advice me on following. Million thanks.
Background (floor plan attached):
- Have been planning to replace my existing Daikin (over 10 years old). Wish to cool all 3 rooms + living room + study room. Why study room? Will create a sliding partition to reduce outside noise from living room, hence need aircon.
- My 5rm is is built after 1994, hence ampere should not be a issue.
- Usage is about 10h daily for at least 2 rm (mostly at night) and a few hours in either room or living rm during day.

My needs:
1. Appreciate if you could advice me on the cooling capacity needed for each area. Current config is 9000+9000+9000+18000 for bedrm/living rm if I'm not wrong.
2. Because of my usage pattern, I was thinking of getting inverter. Comment?
3. One of my prospective ID suggested Fujitsu System 5 as he knows this is the only System 5. Your assessment please on Fujitsu System 5? I did a quick scan on Fujitsu on-line brochure and find either the EER is no good or the cooling under-rated (at least I feel so but not sure I am correct). Any other recommendation?
4. If System 4 (worst case), where an indoor unit for living room is also to cool study room, is this sufficient? Capacity of living room unit? Intended location is beside the kitchen door (will be sliding door) so not optimum for study room which has to be left open (may not be efficient in long run and defeat purpose of putting sliding partition). Window unit as suggested by another ID is not my preference.
5. Appreciate also recommendation on insulation thickness and copper thickness.

Thankyou and Best Regards.

 

[ridhwan82]

hi Ho Lye Seng,

Wow your unit is really big. Its a cooling feat i must say.

First things first, i need to confirm your electrical loading. maybe you can email me your postal code? [email protected]

Secondly, would you be able to check with HDB is you are allowed to fix 2 outdoor units? Typically you should be able to if you have a higher electrical loadin. If you can fix 2 outdoor units its better. do a quick check with your local hdb office yeah? and also check with them the locations of these 2 units? not too sure if the service balcony is one of them.

Third, your room requirements are as such.
Left of store 9417BTU, with this a 9k blower should be okay
Right of store 7984 BTU, again with a 9k blower should be alright

Main room, 10,358 BTU, a 12k blower would be better i would add though a 9k blower can do the job thought a tad overworked.

Study area, 8475 BTU, if you are getting a seperate unit for this it would be 9k blower

finally your hall, 20,226BTU this would require the 20k btu would be nice.

(worst case scenario 20,226+8475= 28,947 BTU for living and study. This is way outside engineering data can handle max typically is 24k btu blowers) Hence the hall and the study would be cool only to comfort but not cold. if you are having guest over your place, with this open will sure pengs.

Regarding inverter or non inverter, Well if your amphere is limited at 11amps then non inverter should be alright. But if say its limited to 8.5amps then an inverter would be a must.

Looking at your usage yeah probably its a borderline case between inverter and non inverter, imho i would suggest you get inverter in lieu of the rising trend of electricity tariffs.

Fujitsu system 5 huh. Not too sure. BUt like what you say its EER thats pretty unsatisfactory that you can try carrier system 5 perhaps. i think even sanyo has a system 5 which is rarely published. this i gotta find more.

Well i certainly hope that your place can place 2 outdoor units then it would be easier to config.

i also agree with you on the window unit which was suggested. cos personally i also prefer not to get a window unit.

as for insulation thickness and copper thickness you can look at the relevant catalogues. it would be mentioned. it differs from manufacturer to manufacturer.

im afraid cant help you with much for the moment. hopefully can place 2 outdoor units and get them where also. hdb will usually try to say yeah its inside the maintenance booklet and the booklet online is very messy insist on asking them for the exact locations that you can install.

Cheers! and good luck

 

[chendol]

just a note of warning, if your inverter aircon unit has to be installed outside your master bedroom windows, make sure that your casement windows can still open after that.

cos some inverter aircon units are very tall, 4-5 inches higher than the base of the windows and will block the windows from opening fully.

don't think they can shift the bracket lower if that happens either.

 

[acid]

yeap, for those with open/swing out window has to take note, as my previous flat has this problem. Guess nowadays most flats uses sliding window instead.

 

[nicgrace]

Hi Ridz, Twinkle and acid,
Thanks. In fact, HDB shared the same pointer on window. Fortunately my window is a sliding type.

Situation as follow: HDB confirmed I could put up 2 outdoor units (40A available). The 2 approved locations are kitchen and master bedroom (an 'aircon cabinet' built in the room). My problem with the mbr is that I have already had a built-in recess cabinet and have never intended to use it for outdoor unit. Reason is because of my neighbour's experience that their mbr is hot as a result of the outdoor unit in mbr, not to mention the humming noise at night. Consequently, HDB indicated they allow application of preferred location by aircon installer. Chances depends on their architect. My preferred location is study room or mbr toilet. Intend to put system 2 there for study+living rm, while system 3 outside kitchen for 3 bedrm. For system 3, intend to get inverter. For system 2, undecided as usage pattern should be either study or living rm switching on one at a time with total duration around 4h a day.

Another info for sharing, called up Sanyo concerning system 5. There is a few months leadtime cos Sanyo need to order from overseas. This monster system @ monster price (ball-park):
- Outdoor unit of 76,400BTU @$8175
- Indoor unit of 9,000BTU @$880 each
- Indoor unit of 24,000BTU @$1,055

That's it so far.

 

[chendol]

i purposely changed my sliding window to casement cos more ventilation. HDB never told me that, aircon guys never told me that, window guy never told me, ID never told me. guess it never crossed my mind too.

acid,

so how? what did you do for previous flat? just live with it ah?

I looked ard my block and realised that another flat also has casement and a tall inverter unit. i think they decided to live with it. can still open lah, but only about 5 inches from when it is closed.

 

[silverx2c]

Hi ridz

hse type : 4 room hse in sengkang 92sqft whereby mbr and bedrm 2 hack into one room, so total left with only 3 room ( 2 bedrm plus one living room)

i am going for the toshiba inverter (13+10+22) on a 30K BTU compressor from them

quote from hong ta* is $3150
1) armaflex as outer insulation
2) thermaflex as inner insulation (1/2 inch)
3) 16mm drainage pipe
4) 23 gauge copper pipe
5) 2 installation
6) unlimited piping and trunking

most of the time i will be powering on the 13K + 22K BTU units (combine room + living room)

is it ok and will the rooms be cold enough?
awaiting ur good advice thanks!

 

[ridhwan82]

hi silverx2c,

hmm im not too sure about the dimensions of the rooms if you would be able to provide me with those then at least i can gauge a bit more accurately eh> =)

But by the looks of 30k btu as well as your higher amphere it should be alright.

But just that it will take a bit of a longer time to cool down properly especially when operating the 13+22k btu yeah cos this combination already is very heavy for the 30k btu to handle.

Especially when you mention that the mbr and bdrm2 is hacked into one room. this usually means that you actually need a bigger btu like 18 or so but again depends on the dimensions. hence the reason why i cannot comment on whether it is cold or not.

as for the quote i think its quite alright.

 

[acid]

hi twinkle,

yeap no choice, have to live with it.
just use a curtain to cover the window to 'beautify; it

 

[jodex]

hi ridz, thinking to buy 1 unit of 26000 but compressor with 3 units of 9000 btu and 1 unit of 22000 btu aircon. The price they quoted uses nyflex. Is it worth to top up $200 to use armaflex insulation? And will it be ok if i on 2 unit of 9000 btu and a unit of 22000 btu aircon?

 

[chendol]

Acid,

aiyoh my problem is not the look of it...

it's the fact that my casement window (purposely make casement to increase ventilation, since sliding sure got one panel blocked) 2 out of 3 panels cannot open more than a bit... so my windows basically can't use.

now the champion situation is the window ppl want to charge me $292 to fix an 4 inch alum box below, or $360 to fix a minimum 8 inch glass panel below. that means the casement portion is elevated above the compressor unit and can open fully. alternatively, the aircon ppl want to charge me $350 to change the bracket such that the unit can be lower. but the aircon guy just called me, even if want to change bracket also kang kor now cos my BUILT-IN wardrobe is blocking cannot take out bracket!!!

*FAINTED*

just ranting, don't mind me.

 

[acid]

Hi Twinkle,

understand your frustration, at that time I am also very frastrated, but no choice, has to make do with it.

To elevate the windows, before doing it, make sure they get approval from HDB branch office. Changing the s/s bracket to 'non-standard' type, also better to get them to get HDB approval before doing too. Just to safe guard yourself.

If you want lots of ventalation, change sliding windows with top hung. At least you can open 2 out of 3 sliding and all the top hung. Rather then 1 caaasement plus 2 tiny gap.

Another alternative is, have you consider those 'expensive' sliding windows, whereby can push all the windows panel to 1 side? Don't know it may help you or not.

 

[chendol]

oh yah... I've heard of those sliding windows... think casement also can all push to one side, but that's assuming the casement can open in the first place haha.

thanks for the advice on checking HDB requirements. gd point, since if it's not approved, next time if we sell, might have to change back again! think right now we are leaning towards trying our best to change the aircon position...

 

[oasis]

see lotsa models here.

Will likely be going for mitsubishi. Daikin too ex

Honx Tax seems to be mentiond quite often here. Do most of you all buy from there?

Thanks

 

[mintee]

hi all, any comments on the LG Art Cool? I saw it yesterday at Gain City and oh my it looks really sleek and cool with mirror! But $300 more ex then similar models... and the mirror while nice might not have much use as AC are all high up near the ceiling. Any comments?

Ho Lye Seng.. my living room is similar to yours. Very spacious but kinda squarish and not rectangular enough. Do you mind sharing with me how you arrange your furniture and TV console? Did you partition your living room?

 

[cha_alex]

try ur luck.... despite many bad comments who noe u r lucky one

 

[nicgrace]

Hi mintee,
Just came back and didn't have time to go into drawing, hence will just attempt to describe in words (which I'm no good at).

- Balcony door removed. Will make shoe cabinet and display cabinet in this area.
- No intention to partition living room. TV console facing balcony area. TV console flanked by configurable L-shaped sofa and coffee tables (1 main and 1 side tables).
- For dining area, will make long L-shaped with headrest cushion height sitting bench skirting along the wall (just left of kitchen sliding door). Of course comes with dining table.
- Study room will be partitioned.

Hope you understand.

 

[mintee]

hi nicgrace, thanks for the reply

I roughly get what u mean. Initially I was thinking of keeping my balcony door as I wanted to install aircon for the living room. but after looking at associated costs and trouble of having to get 2 aircon compressors etc etc.. ay, forget it abt the living room aircon liao. So i will likely do shoe cabinet in the area near the balcony door, just as you did.

 

[musicsoulz]

Hi, just wondering if the ideal location of aircon superceeds your space planning designs?

I just went to an ID to discuss about space planning of my 4-rm std flat. Discovered that it was already difficult to fit in my king size bed and a wardrobe as my flat's MBR design is odd. The bay windows took up quite a fair bit of area of the walls, gave us a headache on where to put bed n wardrobe etc.

My ID didn't discuss about the aircon locations cos' he claimed companies like GainCity can advise. I guess he probably didn't want to give wrong advices, but he didn't tell us whether to proceed with house design or consult aircon specialist 1st.

Not too sure if we should consult the experts on where is best to have the aircons installed 1st before proceeding to do the space planning i.e. design on the rooms.

Can anyone advise? Thanks.

 

[tingshen]

Hi all,

I'm looking at Sharp Plasmacluster System 3 and Single split unit. Seems like it's not VERY popular in Singapore.

Any recommendation and price indication? Saw C00lserve is pricing them at $2K for the AH-L21CV/ AH-PM09CV x 3 and $1400+ for AH-AP18CV

 

[paperball]

I had bought a resale flat and going to remove the old a/c system and install new one.

The current owners has a Daikin single split to their MBR while having another system 2 cater for the other 2 bedrooms. I'm thinking of installing just a system 3 but wonder the rating for those 3-1 is sufficient for my room sizes.

Everyone is always talking about Daikin in terms of reliability ... any suggestions on brands beside Daikin ... inverter or non-inverter .. basically my a/c will only from 10pm till 7am next morning.

Thanks.

 

[tingshen]

ever consider Haier?

I choose sharp because of the plasmacluster.

 

[cleo2210]

Hi,
Can I check if there is a difference in the electricity consumption when on 1 unit compare to on 2 units of aircon? Or its the same no matter u on 1 or 2 units. Tks.

 

[ridhwan82]

of course there will be difference if you switch on 1 unit versus 2 units or even 3 units.

but the overall consumption may not be very great with each additional unit added into operation.

Eg the difference between 0 - 1 unit in operation is a lot

as compared to as when you have 3 units then you switch on 4. the difference in consumption when you run 4 vs 3 is not a lot. but differences will still be there.

 

[saliva]

hi,

anyone can share wat's the difference between inverter and non-inverter air-con?

Inverter aircon is more ex. Does it also mean more energy saving?

Pls advise and share yr views.

 

[paperball]

The difference is an inverter c/w variable speed control circuit board to regulate the speed of the condenser motor based on the demand of cooling needed. Advantage is energy efficient and less wear and tear due to less spikes arise from the frequent cut-in and cut-off of the motor which is how a non-inverter A/C system works.

With additional built-in circuit board, it will cost more than a conventional one.

 

[saliva]

thanks for the info...

Does that equate to more energy and cost saving for inverter as compared to non-inverter air-con?

Heard that not much difference between inverter and non- inverter when the usage is 1 unit. ONly when 2-3 units are on simultaneously will there be energy saving. Is this claim true?

 

[paperball]

An inverter A/C system operates through the variable speed drive (VSD) which varies the frequency of the motor based on the demand of cooling needed, ie. the heat load in HVAC concept. A non-inverter motor operates at 50Hz and a fix speed whereas VSD operates variable speed eg. from 30Hz (low load) to 50Hz (max. load). The power needed to drive a 30Hz speed is defintely lower than the one with full speed at 50Hz, and translate into energy saving (lower electricity cost).

In translating to energy saving for 1 unit to 2-3 units of FCU operating at the same time, of course the latter will save more. Even if you run 1 FCU, there will be reasonable amount of saving unless you set your temperature to the minimum of 16degC which practically, the A/C will run at full speed trying to match the setting.

 

[cleo2210]

wow PaperBall u seem to nod alot on air con.

 

[cleo2210]

actually i hv some prob. my aircon in e master bedrm is not cold at all. e air blown out is like wat u get from a fan. i called for svc b4. e guy said tat is bcos e gas leak, but after 1 day of pumpg e air its back to fan air again. my another room which is jus bside e master bedrm aircon oso not v cold. u can only feel it if u stand under e aircon unit. as for e other rm which my tenant is using, e aircon is super cold. now i thinkg shd i jus buy a portable aircon since i seldom on aircon too

 

[paperball]

Hi Cleo2210,

The likely causes are:-

1)leakage of refrigerant gas (from joints, cooling coil) equates to low gas pressure which resulting in your air-con not cold. If got leakage, no matter how often you charge in the gas, you still need to do it very often (not solving the root cause).
2)chokage of the cooling coils and blower resulting the air blown out from the FCU is not strong. Suggest you go for chemical cleaning if you have not done so for at least the past 3 years.

 

[junelbk]

Anyone use Panasonic System 3? Is it noisy?

I got quote ranging from $1699 - 1900 at IMM. Anyone have good lobang?

Btw if my resale flat has a single system just use for 1 year. Do i sell to those company that takes back air-con or i can ask if shop ppl where i'm getting the air-con to sell for me?

 

[cheekybee]

Hi, can anyone recommend reliable air con dealers? Why do I see prices so much higher at Best Denki than what I was quoted at IMM aircon shops? Appreciate your advice! Thank you.

 

[krisyjo]

I was quoted $2050 including installation with a bracket for Panasonic System 3.. is this considered exp?

 

[monkie]

hi kris
this is ok.

 

[krisyjo]

Hi Cynthia,

Thanks!! feel more confident on the pricing now cause i didnt have time to search ard on the price.

 

[monkie]

hi kris
normally for panasonic w/o inverter is about $1780 - $2000.
the difference is the types of copper pipes, insulation material grade and 1 or 2 time installation.
my friend get it at $1780 because that is during an exhibition and also was panasonic new product launch price.

 

[krisyjo]

oic.. the price quoted to me comes with 2 times installation. Do you have recommend Panasonic then? so far is there any complaints abt this brand?

 

[monkie]

hi kristine
the price you are paying is safe..not to worry.

i am not an expert in air cons but based on my limited understadning, panasonic is consider new for air con market.

to me, buying electrical appliances requires a bit of luck nowadays. because most of the components are cost driven so their quality is very doubtful. and quality control is not as strict as in the past...and in short, an item that can last for 5 yesrs is lucky already.

 

[krisyjo]

thanks! i will go ahead with this contractor then!

 

[cutie_gal]

Hi

Pls HELP!
I intend to air-con my 3 bedrms & hall. We aware tat Sys 4 will suit our needs but Sys 4 only inverter type and we understand that inverter type will help us save $$ unless we on 2-3 units at the same time and for a certain no. of hrs. Since there's only me & my hubby and occassionally hv guests during the wkends, we intend to get a sys 3 nd a single unit for hall, is it advisable???

Any reliable brand to reco? Heard ppl say LG got one model which got quite a high horse power for Sys 3 as compared to the rest of the brand? Anyone heard of it?

Thxs a million!

 

[monkie]

hi ongfamy
how big is ur living room?
if your living room is huge, one air-con may not be enough.
you can get a higher BTU for living room.

brands like daikin, mistsubitsi, samsung and LG are not bad...

 

[ridhwan82]

hi ongfamy,

well yes you can do that too.

If yours is a new flat, it can accomodate 2 outdoor unit which means that if you are using the 3 bedrooms very often and say 2 rooms usually.

You can opt for a sys 3 inverter system, this will help you save on your bill if you are using more often,

And then install a system 1 with a 24k btu for your living room that is NON Inverter so that the cost of purchasing the unit is not as expensive.

Hmm okie this is a bit diff to help.
But what are the dimensions of your rooms and also if you would be able to provide me with your usage pattern on all the rooms.

And also not forgetting whether yours is a new flat or old flat. Do you have an air con ledge at the service yard?

ANd finally what is your budget. Then i see what i can help you with yeha>?

 

[ppbbxhz]

hi ongfamy,

i m also having the same concern as you. I have checked with Gain City ppl, and they suggested inverter system, as he say the inverter system will be able to generate the cold air to the living room when the rest of the units are not on. However if get non-inverter aircons, we need to buy those with high BTU.

I m still considering whether to get a inverter system or normal system. My budget is 3k for the aircon, if cant get sys 4, will just install sys 3.

 

[ridhwan82]

hi XHZ,

what is your usage patterns in all the rooms.and also whethre or not you have an air con ledge? Is yours a new flat?

And also what is the dimensions of all the rooms individuall., See if i can help you?

 

[ppbbxhz]

hi ridz,

its a new flat.
my living rm is 8.8m by 4m.
mbr is 3.1 m by 4.5m.
br1 and br2 is 3m by 2.8m.

thanks.

 

[ridhwan82]

hi XHZ,

Well wow your hall is really big,

Hmm well the cost of installaing non inverter system 4 which is available from daikin but then again cos your halls is big it might not be able to provide that power for you, though the price is like around 2480. but the power for the halls on this system is like barely 18k and your hall definitely requires 24kbtu

and with that i defintely think that an inverter system would be ideal choice.

As non inverter system 3 (due to your low usage) plus a non inverter system 1 for your hall costs about the same as an inverter system 4 which is more efficient than a non inverter.

and price tag of inverter system 4 is around 3560.

sorry dude.. perhaps you might want to increase your budget,, i know its a bit tight.

 

[ppbbxhz]

hi ridz,

wat abt having a system 3 inverter system for living room, mbr, and 1 br?

wat will that cost?

thanks

 

[ridhwan82]

this could cost you slighlt above 3k. probablt 3.1k to 3.2k or sorts.

 

[ridhwan82]

Oh for mitsubishi electric

(mit using r410a gas) MXY 3A28VA + MSXY GA10VA X2 (for mbr and rm 1) + MSXY GA22VA (for the licing room.

This would cost you about $2930. this is the latest quote.

Daikin is more expensive.

using r22 gas 3mkd75dvm (outdoor unit) + 1 x ftkd25dvm (for BR1) + 1 x ftkd35 dvm (for MBR) and 1x ftkd 60 bvm

this is about 3200

and the r410a gas its about 3900.


Though daikin is at 3200 which is more expensive but then this combination is using a 9k for your BR1 while its using the 13k for you MBR and also 22k for the hall.

While the mit is using 9k for MBR and BR1 and 22 for the hall.